en-us Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:21:46 -0500 ATM@msgroup.org 60 *All Things Motorcycle* - Rider Training Courses http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/ *All Things Motorcycle* for Guest http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/ http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/rss_32.png *All Things Motorcycle* RSS Feed 144 47 Rider Training Courses - Another Training FatalityShadyriderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=12049&REPLY_ID=117047Rider Training Courses Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:24:07 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12049 I really doubt it was reported. The switch evidently will work just fine until the contacts melt together or whatever it does to fail. The bad thing to me is one wouldn't be used to "thumbing" the switch as habit to kill the engine.]]>Rider Training Courses - SMSA ConferenceTonicBIAhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=12134&REPLY_ID=116372Rider Training Courses Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:08:10 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12134 I have a wedding that I apparently "have" to go to. Let us know how it turns out!]]>Rider Training Courses - Model National Standards For Entry Level Rider TrainingDataDanhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=12073&REPLY_ID=116165Rider Training Courses Thu, 05 Aug 2010 10:03:20 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12073 And thank you for providing them, gymnast! [8D]]]>Rider Training Courses - Kill switch during training of newbiesdhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=12051&REPLY_ID=115731Rider Training Courses Fri, 23 Jul 2010 05:35:02 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12051 Rob:
I agree with you. Maybe not quite the way Jim would say it but it is certainly there for the RiderCoaches to use and the students to practice as they are moved from Ex 1 to the start points for Ex. 2.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - Effectiveness of driver trainingaidanspahttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=12025&REPLY_ID=115719Rider Training Courses Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:42:24 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12025
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

I believe that formal training in the fundamentals of motorcycle operation and control is essential as a foundation leading to rider competence, but have no confidence, whatsoever, that passing the BRC effects motorcycle accidents and the outcomes (death and injury) except as a precursor to learning a safety mindset such as is promoted on this site.
From the NHTSA NAMS site, Human Factors - Rider Education & Training, "Where We Are" (final paragraph):
quote:
There is no evaluation of rider education and training effectiveness or measures to determine if program effectiveness has been compromised due to the lack of resources. It is assumed, yet unknown, that the current programs are teaching necessary skills to survive in traffic.(bold mine)
In the section "Where We Want To Be", without any way of knowing what effect rider training has on motorcycle crash rates, the NHTSA calls for "quality rider education and training for all interested riders, new riders, and potential riders." Further:
quote:
Uniform data collection, data sharing methods, and training effectiveness measures should be instituted nationwide for evaluation of state rider training and other education programs.(bold mine)
The ability to gauge training effectiveness as regards crash countermeasures does not exist. I believe it is something that cannot be measured with any degree of accuracy or objectivity. Just what kind of training effectiveness measures is NHTSA referring to?
]]>Rider Training Courses - ERC Commentskacinpahttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10404&REPLY_ID=115499Rider Training Courses Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:19:25 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10404
quote:
Originally posted by CaptCrash
[br
How come no one ever discusses what was taught in the CLASSROOM during a BRC or ERC? Riding is best when it's the thinking man's (or woman's) game.


On this point, I learned more the first hour I spent reading things on this site that I did in the BRC classroom session.

Perhaps someone with zero knowledge of a motorcycle might learn from the class, but I found the material not much different than the knowledge I had to have to pass the PENNDOT knowedlege test required to obtain the Motorcycle permit that was mandatory to take the BRC.

The course content and format (groups of 4 strangers giving the answers to select questions)simply lead to the most kniwedgable people in the class actually answering the questions and the rest just being there for the ride.

The written test given at the end was just a longer version of the permit test everyone in the class already had to have passed.

I have nothing to say of the ERC as I have yet to take it. However, I can't imagine anyone learned much to help them stay safer in the BRC classroom portion that they shouldn't have already known.]]>Rider Training Courses - Can the Effectiveness of Training Be Measured?gymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11341&REPLY_ID=115495Rider Training Courses Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:52:33 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11341 Hmmm. Coca Cola with it's original ingredients started out as a "refreshing health tonic". It's economic success as a company since is based upon advertising programs and the low cost of ingredients and very high markups. The benefits of people drinking Coca Cola have been primarily among those associated with the dental profession. Coca Cola is a good cheap chrome cleaner in a pinch and it mixes well with rum.

Is this not a great country or what?]]>Rider Training Courses - BRC Countersteering Terminologytrailriderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11847&REPLY_ID=114695Rider Training Courses Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:47:16 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11847
quote:
You are part of the 'frame of reference' of your motorcycle. Pushing down on the handlebar only causes an equal force of the handlebar pushing up if you consider it from the Newtonian physics standpoint.

The two forces cancel each other. You can push all day on your handlebar (assuming you're not upsetting the combined center of gravity) and yet your motorcycle will not lean.

If someone was standing external to the bike and pushed down, that might be a different story.
When someone pushs down on one grip if feels like that pushes the bike into a lean. May be what's happening is you're using the handle bar to push your upper body to the opposite side. If that happens the bike needs to lean to counterbalance your body weight. Try this on the bike, tense your midsection then push down on the grip, nothing happens, the bike doesn't lean. Next, leave your midsection relaxed and push down and the bike will lean. The difference is the movement of your upper body. You can move your upper body weight side to side with, or without, pressing down on the grip.]]>Rider Training Courses - Stayin'SafeDataDanhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11859&REPLY_ID=114242Rider Training Courses Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:17:12 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11859 I haven't taken the course, but I was a fan of the school's founder, the late Lawrence Grodsky, whose column in Rider magazine was also Stayin' Safe.

To learn more about Grodsky's approach, you can read his book, also called Stayin' Safe, which is a posthumous collection of Rider columns with additional commentary from people in the motorcycle biz who knew him.]]>Rider Training Courses - Motorcycle Safety CourseJsinhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11621&REPLY_ID=114034Rider Training Courses Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:08:53 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11621 I am scheduled to attend the BRC in Ohio ($25 cheap!) and I'll be listening closely comparing what I've learned here with what I get there. Hopefully I'll be able to take some notes so I can share with you guys!

I look forward to this class I think as much as I did getting on my bike the very first time. Of course once I complete the class I'm eligible to ride it to work if I so choose :)]]>Rider Training Courses - How Not To Do a Motorcycle Safety Activitydhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11843&REPLY_ID=113983Rider Training Courses Tue, 01 Jun 2010 12:32:27 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11843
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast

Setting up the activity with a display and opportunity for interaction in the vendor area inside the facility would have been the "way to go". This would have been the method of choice, in my opinion, for getting the message out as well as an opportunity to develop rapport between the Public Safety/Law Enforcement Authorities and the motorcycling public.


Gymnast:
I'm with you. Setting up in the vendor area at the track would have paid off with a positive message and a partnership memory for the riders in attendance. Instead, what most riders now remember was a traffic jam caused by the "safety" checkpoint when people were ready to leave the track. Many riders certainly now have the impression that they were hassled by "the man". It sounds like they need a new PR officer at the Utah Highway Patrol.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - Dropped bikes in msf classAxiom2000http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11747&REPLY_ID=113431Rider Training Courses Wed, 12 May 2010 20:25:56 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11747 Before becoming a Rider Coach I did a fair amount of investigative work concerning the MSF. Although I knew I would be working for a program administered by the state, I needed to understand the role the MSF played. Many of the things I discovered were bothersome but it was easy to see, other than using the MSF curriculum, what happens down at the range level where the rubber meets the road there was no pressure direct or indirect from the MSF or anyone else for that matter to pass unqualified students.

However, even lacking direct evidence of a conflict of interest, the appearance of conflict will always be present as long as the MFS and the MIC are joined together at the hip. Realistically I am not sure how it could be viewed otherwise. The MIC exists for one reason, to further the interests of the motorcycle manufacturing industry. It would be difficult to separate the goals and interests of each when both share the same office and a common leadership.

As a coach and part of the management of our states program, I believe we have a fair amount of latitude in how we run our program. If we were not satisfied with the evaluation standards, we could change them. The same goes for modifying the curriculum to better suit our needs. The MSF provides the curriculum, along with advice and counsel for its use as well as standards for certifying our instructors. Beyond that they do not dictate nor exercise influence over our state or how our program is run.

There have been many good points expressed here. In the main I find those who offer fair criticism of the MSF do so because the provided curriculum lacks in real life preparation for a new rider to operate on the public streets. Yet successful completion of the MSF, BRC awards the M endorsement, difficult to argue with criticism in that vein. Given the state of motorcycle training and licensing in this country however, I think any novice rider graduate of the BRC will stand a much better chance of survival on the streets versus one who is self taught. If I did not believe that and believe I may make a difference for new riders I would not be a rider coach, I certainly dont do it for the money.

I am encouraged by what I see coming out of the MSF lately, new programs specifically aimed at different types of riders, the new Core Curriculum with street riding looks like it may fill a needed GAP. Although these programs are untested as yet with empirical data to see if they will provide the desired benefits and results. It does look like the MSF is attempting to fill the gaps and evolve. All good things I think.

quote:
There is no doubt that there are a few Rider Coaches who have complicity, together with their employer the MSF, in passing perhaps marginally unqualified students. I believe most of them however do a fine job.


Postman, if your opinion is, there are Rider Coaches out there who are complicit in passing unqualified students that's fine. However to state that as a no doubt fact based on your experience with the BRC in Maryland would cause me to question that statement as anything but your opinion.


]]>Rider Training Courses - Class availability (or lack there-of)TonicBIAhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11767&REPLY_ID=113423Rider Training Courses Wed, 12 May 2010 18:32:51 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11767 The problem with the ERC is that it's not much of an experienced riders course. According to my state's program, it is designed for a rider fresh out of the BRC with basic familiarity on their own bike. This can be anywhere from 1-4 weeks. The idea is to help them transition the skills learned from the BRC onto their own bikes, then slightly refine them. However, with the caveat of the last exercise and an optional portion on the first exercise, every exercise is from the BRC. There are slight differences: more room for the u-turn, more room for the swerve, and slightly higher required speeds. However, that doesn't have the pull of the license waiver or the promise of "getting your knee down" that all new riders seem to crave.

I took my ERC in Illinois where they run the old version from the RSS. There the name was no misnomer and I found it to be a much more adapt class at refining my riding skills. Still, it wasn't quite what I was looking to find.

If you've been riding for some time, I would recommend the Lee Parks Total Control Advanced (taking a breath) Riding Clinic. The class is much more of an experienced course. While it will teach you an advanced body posture that's truely never warrented on the street, it also teaches you a less aggressive form perfectly complementing street riding. Further, the exercises will significantly help you refine your line, throttle and brake control as well as teach you a plethora of great information on bike suspension, traction and braking philosophies. It's also designed to help you take a lot of the fear out of the ride, which many of my students tell me is the most helpful.

If level I isn't enough for you, Lee and Terry are now offering level II as well. Throw in some trail braking through a turn, quick stops from 50-60 mph, tricky turn techniques (decreasing radius) and the completely useless speed shifting.

If we could get more people into ERC's I'm sure they'd hold more of them. In the meantime, keep your eyes open to all the other options out there. It's truely an amazing time for the growth of rider training.]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider Coach TrainingAxiom2000http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11726&REPLY_ID=113131Rider Training Courses Tue, 04 May 2010 05:12:54 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11726 We graduated 11 of the original 12 candidates, one just decided it was too much effort. Frankly I was concerned about many of them after the first day of student teaching. The Saturday post class brief was not pleasant as our state administrator let them all know in no uncertain terms that if Sunday morning did not show immediate and marked improvement he would be forced, for the benefit of the paying students, to remove all the candidates from the range turning it over to the experienced coaches present. Thus ending any hope for becoming rider coaches. Apparently the tongue lashing was the trick, all of them were there at dawn the next day to work, on their assigned exercises, practice and ask questions.

Dave our group was not a lucky as yours with the mix of students, Although it was a typical of what you may expect to find at any given BRC there were a number that struggled with the basics. In that regard I felt a lot of empathy for these candidates in trying to struggle with managing the dynamics of the BRC while not really having the experience to actually coach new riders with issues. At the end of the day however, it was obvious the students were improving as their skill level and confidence got better.

Although I would not want to do it again next month as physically and mentally it was like teaching a BRC every weekend for a month. I did enjoy it as well as adding some new tools that will help me in the future.]]>Rider Training Courses - What will be the Trainer Bike in RE now?Kirbychttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11378&REPLY_ID=112761Rider Training Courses Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:44:56 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11378 I heard a rumor right after Buell closed that HD might reserve a corner somewhere to build a 'Riders Edge' bike that looks VERY much like a Blast.]]>Rider Training Courses - Micro managment even in teachingdhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11686&REPLY_ID=112741Rider Training Courses Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:23:03 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11686 BlurRider:
If I was ever told that a studnet must paas then I would make the same decision which you have. I'm fortunate enough to be extremely influential in the two states where I teach and thus help form policy that specifically prohibits a site owner/supervisor from doing what your site owner was doing. In fact, if it could be proved, then your site owner would no longer be licensed to conduct classes in either of these two states.

"Selling" completion cards/license waivers is simply criminal and those who do so must be penalized. Good for you for having the strength of character to quit. Are there any other providers with scruples near where you live?
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - 21 New Kymcos for Minnesota Rider Training.DDfromMNhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11500&REPLY_ID=112634Rider Training Courses Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:45:43 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11500 Dave,
I agree that more break-in miles would be wise for any new trainer.
I don't believe these were ridden any more than a couple laps around a parking lot, along with the 5 minutes that we rode them prior to our class. Anyway, it didn't seem to be too much of a problem.
I appreciate your advice, especially since you ride such a great motorcycle [;)]
Duane]]>Rider Training Courses - Motorcycle Instructor arrested after teaching while Drunk.Night Trainhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11634&REPLY_ID=112347Rider Training Courses Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:46:30 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11634 Anything is possible especially when equated with human behavior however, I would think this was a somewhat isolated case and is far from representative of the vast majority of Motorcycle Safety Instructors. To be 4 times over the legal limit and not comatose, I would suspect this lady in-vibes more regularly than simply on occasion.]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF Unveils Expanded Curriculagymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11619&REPLY_ID=112300Rider Training Courses Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:46:45 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11619 So, Here2learn, having great respect for the initiative it takes to conceive of and implement a motorcycle rider training program aimed at entry level riders, I am here to learn.

What do you consider to be the most important or highest priority administrative concerns that you had to deal with in order to offer on street instruction? How did you go about developing your curriculum content materials for your on street instructional program?

I have a number of other questions and I am sure that others do as well, however unless you feel otherwise this seems to be about as good a place to start a discussion as any.]]>Rider Training Courses - Mil Sport Bike (MSRC) course statshere2learnhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10702&REPLY_ID=112202Rider Training Courses Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:46:25 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10702 Dan,

Thank you for being reasonable.

Those stats were from the conclusions of the link I previously provided "In the past 10 years (1998-2007), motorcyclists injured in crashes have increased at a higher rate than the increase in motorcycle registrations (110% versus 84%)." I may be a little stretch to say new registrations are strictly new riders, but we need something objective to measure and I think it is fair as most new registrations are new riders.

I agree that prior to MIC training becoming the monopoly (prior to the mid-late 1990's) there was a drop in the number of fatalities as a result of training, but prior to the 1990's the number of riders was declining, the rate at least in CA was still increasing.

Please read gymnast's post above to which I will provide a hearty "Amen".

Perhaps we simply cannot agree, but what a valuable debate.]]>Rider Training Courses - Indiana Budget CrunchAxiom2000http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11609&REPLY_ID=112128Rider Training Courses Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:04:23 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11609 Does not surprise me and I doubt this is the last of it we will see. As states face budget shortfalls, I doubt any program not self funded and not politically well connected could be trimmed or cut altogether.

]]>Rider Training Courses - New Street Rider TrainingDataDanhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11590&REPLY_ID=112042Rider Training Courses Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:54:21 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11590
quote:
Originally posted by midlife_crisis

In somewhat of a reductio ad absurdam argument, one could - if one adhered stubbornly to Mr. Filley's position - that no motorcycle training would be the safest approach. That would be: no MSF BRC, no alternative instruction, no practicing of the safety topics presented here.

An argument from risk homeostasis would assert that elimination of formal rider education wouldn't increase crash rates. But it would also assert that fewer people would ride motorcycles. If potential riders correctly evaluate the risk, and some of them conclude that, without training, it is greater than their personal tolerance, they wouldn't take up motorcycles in the first place. They would worry (perhaps correctly) that they couldn't even get the thing around the block without risking a serious mishap. Thus, fewer motorcycle deaths would be expected due to lower participation.

That's how a pure homeostasisist would argue. I would point out that I am not one.

An aspect of training separate from reducing crash risk is empowerment: For many, it makes it possible to enjoy motorcycling, and to enjoy motorcycling more. That's why I don't think training effectiveness can be measured by crash risk alone. See my thread here from January, "Can the Effectiveness of Training Be Measured?"

quote:
It would seem that, to be effective, motorcycle training must place the skills in context with the surroundings and, most importantly, the attitude. While one cannot ride at all with zero knowledge, all the learned skills in the world won't make a safer rider if that rider doesn't operate from an attitude of safety.

And how, exactly, does one train that attitude? I contend that it isn't teachable, though it can be cultivated with incentives. Consider a rookie motorcop. Off duty, he may be something of a madman. But the milieu of motorcops is infused with concern for safety, and if he doesn't Get It, he won't be one for long. It isn't that he will learn a new attitude. Rather he will adopt the cultural norm for safety.]]>Rider Training Courses - Status of Motorcycle Rider Traing Programs?dhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11226&REPLY_ID=111668Rider Training Courses Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:25:57 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11226
quote:
Originally posted by Axiom2000

I believe last year we saw the beginning of the negative impact the economy had on rider training, due in the main I think, to a serious drop in motorcycle sales. This year is not starting out well at all. I had to cancel both our first and second class of the year due to insufficient registrants. We have enough students to make a class for next week but pre-registrations for the coming classes look very poor to non-existent. If this trend were to continue throughout the year I am not sure how the expense of maintaining such a program could be justified. Question for the other Rider Coaches, how are your programs holding up.


Jerry:
Our first class begins in a week and it is full. For dates through the end of May we have sold all of the spots that are available to the public via the internet as well as walk-in and phone-in student spots. We have some openings held back in each of these classes to support a motorcycle sale, so I would say we are looking very similar to past year's demand as of now. I basically have about 20% of my available capacity already sold.
At our recent RiderCoach updates the State Coordinator announced record numbers for applicants and students completing the course but with a major provider folding their tent at the end of 2009, I think our string of increases will be broken this season.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - CMSP Advanced Courseaidanspahttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11540Rider Training Courses Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:19:48 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11540 website lists a course I wasn't aware of, in addition to the MSF BRC and ERC courses, aimed at "beginning riders of all ages 15 1/2 or older who desire a learning experience with more riding time and classroom lessons than the MSF Basic RiderCourse."

This "Premier Program Course" is listed under "Advanced RiderCourses", and the course description sounds very much like BRC, with the addition of a 3rd range session.

Is anybody familiar with this?


]]>Rider Training Courses - Deming School of Motorcycle Traininggymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11498&REPLY_ID=111415Rider Training Courses Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:30:13 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11498 The Military Sportbike Rider Course (MSRC) and nearly identical Advanced Rider Course (ARC-ST) begin the classroom with the use of a Zuckerman inventory form to establish a student's sensation seeking score and to get them started thinking about their own tendencies to take risks. You can learn more about Marvin Zuckerman and his book on the subject here: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...e&q=&f=false

Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - Hedonistic EnthusiasmDDfromMNhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11437&REPLY_ID=110866Rider Training Courses Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:17:34 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11437 I'm hoping to participate in one of these events this year, but it won't be that first one, as I'll be unavailable.
Last June there was a KTM demo ride event held at that same facility. Got to ride KTM's all day on that track. It was a blast.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Your Bike vs Trainer bikesmidlife_crisishttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11380&REPLY_ID=110476Rider Training Courses Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:11 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11380 I have only my own experience to recount, and as everybody knows, one data point does not a good dataset make.

I bought my (used) YZF600R with no riding experience whatsoever; I had never even sat on a motorcycle except as a passenger 35 years earlier. In fact, the kid I bought it from was willing to let me test ride it - Hahahahahahaha! [88] - but I just asked him to let me watch him ride it down the street and back so I could see if the thing actually worked. I think he was having doubts about my sanity.

A few days later, I decided to try to ride the YZF...I took her to a big parking lot at the local community college (it happened to be the location of the MSF courses, one of which was taking place at the time, but out of sight over a hill and around a corner).

My first ride lasted, oh, approximately five seconds before the motorcycle was on its side on the ground, partially on top of me. [:u]

I decided not to try riding anymore until I had completed the BRC.

I took the BRC on a 250cc Honda Nighthawk with a balky gearbox (neutral was very elusive [:p] ). All the bikes in the class were range bikes (no user bikes) and were 125 - 250 cc machines of various types (the standard 'Hawks, a couple of dual-purpose Sherpas, and some 125 and 250 mini-cruisers).

After 12 - 16 hours on the Nighthawk, where I learned from the ground up but without ever dropping the bike, I still felt unprepared for the daunting task of actually mingling with traffic on the street, but I did have a certain level of confidence in my grasp of the basics. I was concerned, though, that I would have a lot of trouble getting back on my much heavier, 85-hp YZF600R and successfully maneuvering it, controlling it, and keeping it upright.

I was pleasantly surprised when I found the YZF600R to be more comfortable than the Nighthawk, and far more maneuverable and controllable than I had thought. It is clearly a well-designed old-school sportbike. In no way did my learning of the basic riding skills on that 250cc statdard bike prevent me from successfully transferring those skills onto the YZF. In fact, I rode tens of thousands of miles before my first crash, which was the result of complacency and the "taking for granted" of the basic tenets of attentiveness, not any lack of experience that could be traced to using a "different" bike in the BRC.

My conclusions?

  • The small "range bikes" are excellent platforms for learning basic skils
  • The use of such range bikes doesn't compromise the student's ability to apply basic skills to other larger and more powerful motorcycles
  • With the wide range of experience levels in the BRC, I wouldn't have wanted to have a wide range of motorcycle types and sizes all trying to operate safely in the group setting
  • FWIW, the only student who failed the BRC - he crashed twice, once during the test portion - was the most experienced rider there; he rode a big Yamaha RoadStar at home, but obviously there were some flaws in his basic skills that the course revealed
  • The use of relatively small "trainer" bikes in the BRC seems to allow for adequate training across a wide range of experience, from total beginner to somewhat experienced.

I took the ERC a year and 10,000 miles after my BRC, and by fortunate coincidence had the same rider coach as I had in the BRC. I used the YZF600R for that class, and found the opportunity to do so very rewarding. Also by coincidence, the RoadStar rider was there with his RoadStar, and he didn't crash once! Possibly even his failure at the BRC a year earlier had taught him some basic skills.



]]>Rider Training Courses - A better way to use the BRC?DDfromMNhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11387&REPLY_ID=110419Rider Training Courses Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:13:48 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11387 Scooter Rider,
We are doing the same thing here in MN. and I agree with your take in so far as some changes should be made.
I don't know what the Industry could do or say about it, as it is the individual state government that controls the licensing requirements in that state, not the industry or MSF. I sometimes feel that the Dept of Public Safety here are really more concerned with not having unlicensed riders on the road than they are with teaching people how to ride safely.
If they had some balls they would go to a tiered system with mandatory training steps.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider Training Puzzle Piece #3gymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11319Rider Training Courses Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:36:22 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11319
http://wmoon.wordpress.com/

]]>Rider Training Courses - Motorcycle Rider Trainggymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11301&REPLY_ID=109753Rider Training Courses Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:04:26 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11301 Excellent points Dan.

I wonder if rider training were approached from a more flexible "Selective Training elements" approach similar to a "selective enforcement approach", rather than a "one size fits all approach", if the basic rider training program results would be more positive. As alluded to above by Capt Crash and Rick Russell and evidenced by the the "sportbike and Military Sportbike" courses, there is already some rudimentary activities along the lines of "selective rider training" underway.]]>Rider Training Courses - Wisconsin's 2010 Motorcycle Safety Planrayg50http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11308&REPLY_ID=109743Rider Training Courses Tue, 12 Jan 2010 06:00:21 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11308 Thank you gymnast. Nice find.

Quite a few things caught my eye. The highest age is 54. 37% had consumed alcohol. They claim success because people are aware of their efforts yet look at the last 2 years in the second chart (46, 44% "Improperly licensed" in fatal crashes). IMO those figures support the need for the program but can be interpreted as either positive or negative in a claim for success.

I tried aligning the numbers in the charts below for readability but it seems the site software reduces white space to one character.


Percentage of Riders in Fatal Crashes Not Wearing a Helmet
2000-2008

2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-2005-2006-2007-2008
-78%-79%--80%-75%-75%--77%--75%-77%--77%


Percentage of Improperly Licensed Riders in Fatal Crashes
2000-2008

2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-2005-2006-2007-2008
-16%-20%--21%-27%-26%--25%--28%-46%--44%

Edited for clarity.

]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF again selected to run California programgymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11304Rider Training Courses Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:06:00 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11304 http://www.roadracingworld.com/news...rticle=39086]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF BRC vs. Rider's EdgeSkootchNChttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10695&REPLY_ID=108247Rider Training Courses Tue, 01 Dec 2009 06:31:02 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10695
quote:
Originally posted by asor



I just went to the Gerbings site, http://gerbing.com/ looking for my x-mas present.

I like the 7v battery operated soft shell vest, only problem is its out of stock until 2010, with no date on when it will come in. I will look on this site for info on how others dress for the cold and for any other vest manufacturers. In the meantime its bundle up or drive the cage when the temp drops to freeze nostril hairs.


If you want to keep your core warm, you may get by without heated gloves.

A friend uses a battery powered vest, that does the trick for him.
Here is his reply when I asked him for deatils

It's an Austrailian made vest made by a company called Jett.

Here is a link to their website http://www.jett.us.com/heat_vest_complete.htm

And here is a link to the review of it and the other major battery heated vests on Webikeworld

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/heat...heated-vest/

I would suggest ordering an extra battery for long rides.... Mine lasts about 4 hours on average. Also make sure you pay attention to the size suggestion in the webbikeword article. If you want me to bring mine to bikenight for whoever to try out in size and to check out the heat let me know.


Rates on web site are in AUS $ so you'll have to work out the exchange rate
]]>Rider Training Courses - Braking and obstacle negotiation workshopjguynnhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11119Rider Training Courses Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:34:46 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11119
We spent about an hour or so in class room being taught theory and about 3-4 hours going over braking techniques, escaping, avoiding, and negotiating obstacles on our bikes. There were 13 students, I was the least experienced rider (less than a month) the most experienced had been riding 34 years. Bikes ranged in size from an SV650 to a Shadow 750 to my Sportster 1200 to Road Kings and Gold Wings.

Most of the things we went over were similar to the BRC 'lessons' just at a higher speed. Typically we were doing between 25 and 35 MPH. It was wet and rainy, a great time to practice proper and safe braking! The courses were laid out by cones (typically a braking chute with a simulated stopped car to swerve around at the end) and the obstacle was a 2x4. Toward the end of the last session, one rider had a front and rear tire lockup (entered the braking chute @ 47 per the radar gun, we were supposed to be going 35) and did not drop his bike. I had a rear tire lockup and caught it.

For $10 I learned quite a bit about proper braking and had a good time with a trained professional critiquing my abilities (or lack thereof).]]>Rider Training Courses - Does anyone get kicked out of BRC?Night Trainhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10696&REPLY_ID=107792Rider Training Courses Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:12:19 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10696 Jguynn, I didn't want to impart a "paranoid mindset", just wanted to keep your feet on the ground before you spread your wings too soon[;^)] The braking and obstacle avoidance workshop sounds interesting. Would like to hear about it once you've taken it.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Japanese BRC?gsxr riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10919&REPLY_ID=107653Rider Training Courses Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:33:29 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10919 Ray,

In order to upgrade to the next catagory, you must have your license for 6 months. The school usually runs about 1 week, and is individually paced, meaning some riders could successfully test out sooner, as others need more practice. You pay a fee of aprox $70.00 a day, learning to master the test... As I said the test is more of a memorization, than understanding skills. For instance, 1st thing, after mounting the motorcycle is to look right, then left, than right, than behind. If you don't do that, in that order... You get points assessed. Yes it is asinine, but it is their testing.


The test is aprox $30.00 (when you are ready..), and is given at the school. so when you desire to "test out" you register for the test, pay the fee, and show up at the designated time. The test is at the school.

M/C endorsements are not pretty common, but those who have one usually have a endorsement for under 400cc. And most usually ride a 250cc bike. (Another topic, but primary reason is a 250cc is a lot less hassle for getting it registered, and more cost efficient in insurance). A lot of people who are inactive, and don't ride still have it on their license. EVERYONE who has a car license can drive a scooter 50cc, it is automatic. And you see those things like gnats riding around. More people seem to ride scooters, than actual motorcycles, especially women. They are primarily commuters, and can haul alot of junk.]]>Rider Training Courses - Womens only classBaggsyhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11041&REPLY_ID=107633Rider Training Courses Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:36:55 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11041 I believe that the concept of this type of course is to allow a woman to attend a motorcycle class while not being intimidated by a particular man, without giving offense to said man.

i.e. The woman's behaviour would change depending on whether the significant other was there or not.

Maybe all of abnsmurf's classes should have a bevy of Hooter's girls posing nearby to weed out those who are detrimentally influenced by their presence. [:D]]]>Rider Training Courses - Counter steering.gsxr riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10904&REPLY_ID=107620Rider Training Courses Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:03:31 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10904
quote:
Originally posted by kinningham

I read the article through. The part that doesn't work for me is saying that shifting body weight is not very important. There may be some arcane physics reason for saying that but in practice how I use my weight, forward and back and side to side, makes a noticable difference in how effectively I can maneuver. All the videos I watch of elite caliber riders maneuvering agressively shows them moving around on the bike a lot. Those motions are not just random nervous reactions to the motion of the bike.


Hello, Many riders are mistaken about what body steering does/does not do to influence the motorcycle. As an advocated rider, nothing more distingueshes a riders skill level, than the ability for him/her to turn the motorcycle. counter steering is the only physical / technical technique of getting a motorcycle turned. Nothing else influences the direction of a motorcycle more so than the pressure we enact on the handlebars. As a demo of "Body-Steering" vice handlebar input, can be viewed at http://www.superbikeschool.com/mach...-machine.php This can clearly demonstrate the difference and influence of what BODY STEERING vs. COUNTER STEERING does.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Ride Like a Pro class review - Port Richeygymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11060&REPLY_ID=107599Rider Training Courses Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:21:00 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11060 Great revue Matt and you make some excellent points. The value of taking a course such as the one you describe is not easily quantified however if approached from the perspective of a "clinic" or "knowledge, skills, and attitude tune up" you like more than got your monies worth if the experience allows you to avoid even a "minor incident".

Not withstanding the MSF Experienced Rider Course,(arguably a quick repeat of the BRC, yet a good experience for a rider who has not gone through any formal instruction) one of the great failings of organized motorcycle safety training by the states is the lack of regular opportunities to refresh skills and readjust ones perspective on the activity of riding as one gains experience over time.

There is a growing number of instructional opportunities for riders to improve their abilities through participation in commercially offered rider training programs. It would be nice if community colleges and universities would become more involved in motorcycle safety programs from the perspective of developmental activities.

In the meantime, courses such as those offered by "The Motorman" continue to be offered with, hopefully, greater frequency in many parts of the country and will be proven to be effective as a crash countermeasure through improving riders skill, knowledge and attitudes.

]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF a must for novice rider?Texasphotographerhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10901&REPLY_ID=106628Rider Training Courses Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:33:43 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10901 RebelGreen, One of the riders instrumental to helping me learn to ride is a very long time rider. Recently his older daughter wanted to get a bike. Instead of offering to teach her himself, he insisted on her attending the BRC course and he paid for it. After completing the course, he rode with her for a few days in and out of parking lots to insure she had a solid footing before she rode on her own.

This, is an ideal situation and wish I had this tutelage before starting back riding a couple of years ago. This site and books I have read plus a couple of courses I took were my foundation. I hope the Mrs. Rebelgreen will attend the course as it provides a positive learning experience. If she does go it alone, and makes a mistake, how will she know?]]>Rider Training Courses - 'Advanced' or 'Performance' Training and Track Daysbachman1961http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10552&REPLY_ID=106477Rider Training Courses Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:10:06 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10552 Scott;

Thanks for the laugh you goofball !

That looks "GR-888-888-888" (tony the tiger)

~b]]>Rider Training Courses - Missing Exercise in MSF BRC coursedhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10814&REPLY_ID=105904Rider Training Courses Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:10:16 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10814
quote:
Originally posted by RobBunch

While there are opportunities to turn from a stop in the BRC, I would disagree Ex 4 is one of them. The "stop" cones are still 20 ft from the outside boundary, so the students get going in a straight line, then turn, assuming they did not stop beyond the cones in the first place.

Dave,
Maybe it's been too long - there was a handlebar turn from a stop in the RSS? I don't remember doing that.


Rob:
I believe it was the old Ex # 16. Lane changing down the middle of the range followed by turning from a stop at each sharp corner. I can still remember talking to myself during the demo: "Feet, Signal, Head, Bars, Lean" then easing out the clutch to make the turn.
Dave

]]>Rider Training Courses - ARC-ST now availablegymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10425&REPLY_ID=105876Rider Training Courses Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:43:55 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10425
quote:
Originally posted by mathews176

Is this course offered in Knoxville, Tn?


There are programs available in Knoxville, and the best way to learn a bit about what is available is to Google, "Motorcycle Rider Training, Knoxville Tennessee".]]>Rider Training Courses - Training courses in CanadaThe Meromorphhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10862&REPLY_ID=105754Rider Training Courses Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:20:59 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10862 Not only bikes. The other major change is in protective riding gear. People seem to forget that generally available armored gear is relatively recent. Prior to that availability, my protective gear (apart from helmet & gloves) was primarily weather protection, with a small side effect of body protection.
ATGATT back then made a much smaller difference to your chance of injury.
Which may be a reason it's not as generally followed as it is amongst the safety oriented community.]]>Rider Training Courses - Concerned for friend taking HD course on Buelldhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10802&REPLY_ID=105279Rider Training Courses Wed, 02 Sep 2009 06:29:12 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10802 Binders:
I think Jim's advice is the best you have been given so far. Let him read up and then make an informed decision. A smaller range and a bigger bike will be more challenging for your friend for sure.

As a Rider's Edge Program Manager I can tell you that there are many better/superior things about the Rider's Edge version of the MSF BRC curriculum. You will see some of my more detailed posts on the subject if the two of you read some of the related threads in this forum.

If he is determined to go there then give him Jim's best advice: If he gets in trouble and a crash is imminent, SQEEZE BOTH LEVERS WITH HIS HANDS!!!! This is good advice regardless of where he takes his training or what brand/size machine he is riding at the time.
Dave
P.S. I'm not sure how you developed the impression you have but there is no riding position issue with a Buell Blast. You will find that it is little different from any other Japanese "standard". The Blast is not a sport bike with a racer crouch riding position like a few of its larger siblings. In fact, Buell has recently "disowned" the Blast since it is considered not sporty enough. Check out the lower left of this web page: http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/]]>Rider Training Courses - Is it true?bindersmokdathttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10752&REPLY_ID=105255Rider Training Courses Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:44:48 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10752 I think a basic rider course should be mandatory in every state.

I have a friend who rented a scooter and passed the course without ever practicing any techniques or learning a lick of road craft. He subsequently went out and crashed badly, now he won't even get on a bike. He puts the blame squarely on "all the idiots" out there, instead of himself.

It's just too easy to get a motorcycle license, easier than a car license. At least at 17 our culture emphasizes practicing with parents, drivers ed classes, driving schools, etc. Since most people get bikes later in life, people forget that there is a learning curve to every thing and they don't know bikes are so much different from cars.

Heck, I'd make a motorcycle course mandatory for EVERY driver so cagers know what we deal with.]]>Rider Training Courses - Total Control - Advanced Riding Clinicgalileohttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10487&REPLY_ID=105064Rider Training Courses Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:45:41 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10487 [/quote]
Rather than again obfuscating a response, how about answering that question with a yes or no?
[/quote]

No. (That's an answer to the question, and not a refusal to answer the question.)

And sorry about the previous post. I thought it didn't post as I went out the door for more practice. My system got hung up. When I checked the board, it wasn't there.

Except for head and eyes control, the course doesn't contain anything of signicant value for me to use on the road as I ride speed limits including advisory limits. However, it is fun for me in the parking lot if done in a mild manner.

I considered the braking thread more beneficial.

]]>Rider Training Courses - Does acceleration help pick up a bike?Nieborhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10783&REPLY_ID=105058Rider Training Courses Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:29:32 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10783
quote:
Originally posted by Beary
Another way this could be done is the rider somehow adding throttle while steering the bike by leaning his body with hands off the handlebars. Not sure how that could happen unless maybe using a hill to increase the speed. Good discussion

Beary

The throttle can be manipulated on any bike with "fly by wire" throttle control with a simple potentiometer (think volume control or joystick). A number of late model H-Ds for example. For that matter, a simple servo manipulating that potentiometer would allow a bystander to manipulate the throttle with any model airplane or car remote. [;)]]]>Rider Training Courses - BRC just completed in SF Bay Areadhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10666&REPLY_ID=104960Rider Training Courses Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:48:56 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10666 Joe:
It sounds to me like they "exaggerated" and probably should consider amending their advertising/brochure/website.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF Releases Rider Perception Training Kitgymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10755&REPLY_ID=104936Rider Training Courses Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:23:07 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10755 In practice, the perceptual component of a guidance and control task occurs under dynamic conditions. Training for perceptual efficiency is best conducted under dynamic conditions such as well designed simulators, dynamic interactive displays and controlled real world exercises. The MSF Rider Perception kit does none of these things and while it make be useful in initiating discussion it has no demonstrated effectiveness in improving operator perception.]]>