en-us Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:37:04 -0500 ATM@msgroup.org 60 All Things Motorcycle - Rider Training Courses http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/ All Things Motorcycle for Guest http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/ http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/rss_32.png All Things Motorcycle RSS Feed 144 47 Rider Training Courses - Does anyone get kicked out of BRC?Night Trainhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10696&REPLY_ID=107792Rider Training Courses Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:12:19 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10696 Jguynn, I didn't want to impart a "paranoid mindset", just wanted to keep your feet on the ground before you spread your wings too soon[;^)] The braking and obstacle avoidance workshop sounds interesting. Would like to hear about it once you've taken it.
]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF BRC vs. Rider's Edgedhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10695&REPLY_ID=107665Rider Training Courses Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:50:08 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10695
quote:
Originally posted by dino.999

DHalen , you can go to MSCV.ORG and check out our MSF Scooter courses offered year round in Richmond , VA.


Thanks Dino. I went to your website but only found Jump Start, BRC and combined IRC/ERC classes. Where is the information on scooter courses. I assume you were referring to the MSF Scooter School I. Correct?
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - Mil Sport Bike (MSRC) course statsgsxr riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10702&REPLY_ID=107655Rider Training Courses Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:06:30 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10702 The biggest key is that we got our service men and woman trained. The Marines (as an example) saw a dramatic spike in fatalities concerning 2 wheel fatalities in 2008, and literally was at a lost on corrective measures. Marines have always been able to improvise, overcome and adapt to situations, and did not fall short in this new endevor. New instituted training methods were established, along with measures of accountability, and reporting. The Marines were at a loss on what to do, to get the "underground" riders out of hiding. These were the riders that never had training, although licensed, or declined to registered their motorcycle on post for a variety of reasons. Initiatives by professionals in the field were a great influence on reversing the trend. The goal now is to sustain it's downward spiral, and maintain the momentum of new and old riders to continue learning, and seeking out training opportunities.

You can follow the trend at the naval safety center, but comparing FY 08 Navy had 33 Fatalities on 2 wheels and the Marine Corps had 25. This pass FY09, the Navy had 13 fatalities on 2 wheels and the Marine Corps lost 14 Marines. That is a significant turn around, considering the growth of riders, and has not been seen since 2002.

Paul]]>Rider Training Courses - Japanese BRC?gsxr riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10919&REPLY_ID=107653Rider Training Courses Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:33:29 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10919 Ray,

In order to upgrade to the next catagory, you must have your license for 6 months. The school usually runs about 1 week, and is individually paced, meaning some riders could successfully test out sooner, as others need more practice. You pay a fee of aprox $70.00 a day, learning to master the test... As I said the test is more of a memorization, than understanding skills. For instance, 1st thing, after mounting the motorcycle is to look right, then left, than right, than behind. If you don't do that, in that order... You get points assessed. Yes it is asinine, but it is their testing.


The test is aprox $30.00 (when you are ready..), and is given at the school. so when you desire to "test out" you register for the test, pay the fee, and show up at the designated time. The test is at the school.

M/C endorsements are not pretty common, but those who have one usually have a endorsement for under 400cc. And most usually ride a 250cc bike. (Another topic, but primary reason is a 250cc is a lot less hassle for getting it registered, and more cost efficient in insurance). A lot of people who are inactive, and don't ride still have it on their license. EVERYONE who has a car license can drive a scooter 50cc, it is automatic. And you see those things like gnats riding around. More people seem to ride scooters, than actual motorcycles, especially women. They are primarily commuters, and can haul alot of junk.]]>Rider Training Courses - Womens only classBaggsyhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11041&REPLY_ID=107633Rider Training Courses Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:36:55 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11041 I believe that the concept of this type of course is to allow a woman to attend a motorcycle class while not being intimidated by a particular man, without giving offense to said man.

i.e. The woman's behaviour would change depending on whether the significant other was there or not.

Maybe all of abnsmurf's classes should have a bevy of Hooter's girls posing nearby to weed out those who are detrimentally influenced by their presence. [:D]]]>Rider Training Courses - Counter steering.gsxr riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10904&REPLY_ID=107620Rider Training Courses Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:03:31 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10904
quote:
Originally posted by kinningham

I read the article through. The part that doesn't work for me is saying that shifting body weight is not very important. There may be some arcane physics reason for saying that but in practice how I use my weight, forward and back and side to side, makes a noticable difference in how effectively I can maneuver. All the videos I watch of elite caliber riders maneuvering agressively shows them moving around on the bike a lot. Those motions are not just random nervous reactions to the motion of the bike.


Hello, Many riders are mistaken about what body steering does/does not do to influence the motorcycle. As an advocated rider, nothing more distingueshes a riders skill level, than the ability for him/her to turn the motorcycle. counter steering is the only physical / technical technique of getting a motorcycle turned. Nothing else influences the direction of a motorcycle more so than the pressure we enact on the handlebars. As a demo of "Body-Steering" vice handlebar input, can be viewed at http://www.superbikeschool.com/mach...-machine.php This can clearly demonstrate the difference and influence of what BODY STEERING vs. COUNTER STEERING does.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Ride Like a Pro class review - Port Richeygymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=11060&REPLY_ID=107599Rider Training Courses Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:21:00 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11060 Great revue Matt and you make some excellent points. The value of taking a course such as the one you describe is not easily quantified however if approached from the perspective of a "clinic" or "knowledge, skills, and attitude tune up" you like more than got your monies worth if the experience allows you to avoid even a "minor incident".

Not withstanding the MSF Experienced Rider Course,(arguably a quick repeat of the BRC, yet a good experience for a rider who has not gone through any formal instruction) one of the great failings of organized motorcycle safety training by the states is the lack of regular opportunities to refresh skills and readjust ones perspective on the activity of riding as one gains experience over time.

There is a growing number of instructional opportunities for riders to improve their abilities through participation in commercially offered rider training programs. It would be nice if community colleges and universities would become more involved in motorcycle safety programs from the perspective of developmental activities.

In the meantime, courses such as those offered by "The Motorman" continue to be offered with, hopefully, greater frequency in many parts of the country and will be proven to be effective as a crash countermeasure through improving riders skill, knowledge and attitudes.

]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF a must for novice rider?Texasphotographerhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10901&REPLY_ID=106628Rider Training Courses Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:33:43 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10901 RebelGreen, One of the riders instrumental to helping me learn to ride is a very long time rider. Recently his older daughter wanted to get a bike. Instead of offering to teach her himself, he insisted on her attending the BRC course and he paid for it. After completing the course, he rode with her for a few days in and out of parking lots to insure she had a solid footing before she rode on her own.

This, is an ideal situation and wish I had this tutelage before starting back riding a couple of years ago. This site and books I have read plus a couple of courses I took were my foundation. I hope the Mrs. Rebelgreen will attend the course as it provides a positive learning experience. If she does go it alone, and makes a mistake, how will she know?]]>Rider Training Courses - 'Advanced' or 'Performance' Training and Track Daysbachman1961http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10552&REPLY_ID=106477Rider Training Courses Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:10:06 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10552 Scott;

Thanks for the laugh you goofball !

That looks "GR-888-888-888" (tony the tiger)

~b]]>Rider Training Courses - Missing Exercise in MSF BRC coursedhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10814&REPLY_ID=105904Rider Training Courses Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:10:16 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10814
quote:
Originally posted by RobBunch

While there are opportunities to turn from a stop in the BRC, I would disagree Ex 4 is one of them. The "stop" cones are still 20 ft from the outside boundary, so the students get going in a straight line, then turn, assuming they did not stop beyond the cones in the first place.

Dave,
Maybe it's been too long - there was a handlebar turn from a stop in the RSS? I don't remember doing that.


Rob:
I believe it was the old Ex # 16. Lane changing down the middle of the range followed by turning from a stop at each sharp corner. I can still remember talking to myself during the demo: "Feet, Signal, Head, Bars, Lean" then easing out the clutch to make the turn.
Dave

]]>Rider Training Courses - ARC-ST now availablegymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10425&REPLY_ID=105876Rider Training Courses Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:43:55 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10425
quote:
Originally posted by mathews176

Is this course offered in Knoxville, Tn?


There are programs available in Knoxville, and the best way to learn a bit about what is available is to Google, "Motorcycle Rider Training, Knoxville Tennessee".]]>Rider Training Courses - Training courses in CanadaThe Meromorphhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10862&REPLY_ID=105754Rider Training Courses Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:20:59 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10862 Not only bikes. The other major change is in protective riding gear. People seem to forget that generally available armored gear is relatively recent. Prior to that availability, my protective gear (apart from helmet & gloves) was primarily weather protection, with a small side effect of body protection.
ATGATT back then made a much smaller difference to your chance of injury.
Which may be a reason it's not as generally followed as it is amongst the safety oriented community.]]>Rider Training Courses - Concerned for friend taking HD course on Buelldhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10802&REPLY_ID=105279Rider Training Courses Wed, 02 Sep 2009 06:29:12 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10802 Binders:
I think Jim's advice is the best you have been given so far. Let him read up and then make an informed decision. A smaller range and a bigger bike will be more challenging for your friend for sure.

As a Rider's Edge Program Manager I can tell you that there are many better/superior things about the Rider's Edge version of the MSF BRC curriculum. You will see some of my more detailed posts on the subject if the two of you read some of the related threads in this forum.

If he is determined to go there then give him Jim's best advice: If he gets in trouble and a crash is imminent, SQEEZE BOTH LEVERS WITH HIS HANDS!!!! This is good advice regardless of where he takes his training or what brand/size machine he is riding at the time.
Dave
P.S. I'm not sure how you developed the impression you have but there is no riding position issue with a Buell Blast. You will find that it is little different from any other Japanese "standard". The Blast is not a sport bike with a racer crouch riding position like a few of its larger siblings. In fact, Buell has recently "disowned" the Blast since it is considered not sporty enough. Check out the lower left of this web page: http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/]]>Rider Training Courses - Is it true?bindersmokdathttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10752&REPLY_ID=105255Rider Training Courses Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:44:48 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10752 I think a basic rider course should be mandatory in every state.

I have a friend who rented a scooter and passed the course without ever practicing any techniques or learning a lick of road craft. He subsequently went out and crashed badly, now he won't even get on a bike. He puts the blame squarely on "all the idiots" out there, instead of himself.

It's just too easy to get a motorcycle license, easier than a car license. At least at 17 our culture emphasizes practicing with parents, drivers ed classes, driving schools, etc. Since most people get bikes later in life, people forget that there is a learning curve to every thing and they don't know bikes are so much different from cars.

Heck, I'd make a motorcycle course mandatory for EVERY driver so cagers know what we deal with.]]>Rider Training Courses - Total Control - Advanced Riding Clinicgalileohttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10487&REPLY_ID=105064Rider Training Courses Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:45:41 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10487 [/quote]
Rather than again obfuscating a response, how about answering that question with a yes or no?
[/quote]

No. (That's an answer to the question, and not a refusal to answer the question.)

And sorry about the previous post. I thought it didn't post as I went out the door for more practice. My system got hung up. When I checked the board, it wasn't there.

Except for head and eyes control, the course doesn't contain anything of signicant value for me to use on the road as I ride speed limits including advisory limits. However, it is fun for me in the parking lot if done in a mild manner.

I considered the braking thread more beneficial.

]]>Rider Training Courses - Does acceleration help pick up a bike?Nieborhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10783&REPLY_ID=105058Rider Training Courses Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:29:32 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10783
quote:
Originally posted by Beary
Another way this could be done is the rider somehow adding throttle while steering the bike by leaning his body with hands off the handlebars. Not sure how that could happen unless maybe using a hill to increase the speed. Good discussion

Beary

The throttle can be manipulated on any bike with "fly by wire" throttle control with a simple potentiometer (think volume control or joystick). A number of late model H-Ds for example. For that matter, a simple servo manipulating that potentiometer would allow a bystander to manipulate the throttle with any model airplane or car remote. [;)]]]>Rider Training Courses - BRC just completed in SF Bay Areadhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10666&REPLY_ID=104960Rider Training Courses Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:48:56 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10666 Joe:
It sounds to me like they "exaggerated" and probably should consider amending their advertising/brochure/website.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF Releases Rider Perception Training Kitgymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10755&REPLY_ID=104936Rider Training Courses Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:23:07 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10755 In practice, the perceptual component of a guidance and control task occurs under dynamic conditions. Training for perceptual efficiency is best conducted under dynamic conditions such as well designed simulators, dynamic interactive displays and controlled real world exercises. The MSF Rider Perception kit does none of these things and while it make be useful in initiating discussion it has no demonstrated effectiveness in improving operator perception.]]>Rider Training Courses - Point assessment?Meliohttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10743&REPLY_ID=104768Rider Training Courses Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:25:23 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10743 I know for myself that I do not test well in these situations... I didn't have my driver's license test waived when I took driver's ed, but I went on to receive a CDL and was quite a good bus driver and I think I'm a pretty good car driver as well. I'm hoping that will ring true with motorcycles as well. I just get really nervous in testing situations and having everyone watching me and knowing it all comes down to just a few exercises. Real life stuff is so much different. Maybe it's just the cones :)]]>Rider Training Courses - Kudos to Fort HoodAxiom2000http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10722&REPLY_ID=104670Rider Training Courses Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:50:20 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10722 Please to report our fourth all ladies class this past weekend went very well. We began with seven completely new riders, one was counseled out early on the first day, for failing to demonstrate any control of the motorcycle and was deemed a safety hazard. The remaining six progressed nicely with improvement noted on every exercise. I have to give them credit they hung in there like troopers during some very hot and humid weather. All six passed and some of the riding evaluations were impressive for new riders. The class critiques were all very positive.

This was our last All Ladies class for this year, however based on the effort these ladies and others in previous classes we held displayed, their desire to learn and just plain, I am gonna get through this no matter what attitude. I plan on scheduling more for next year.]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider's Edge InjurySlammed Lowhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10647&REPLY_ID=104194Rider Training Courses Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:39:36 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647 dhalen32,
You are right. Being that I had no previous motorcycle/clutch experience, my brain was overwhelmed as soon as I sat on the bike. I do remember the things you mentioned. We probably were in first gear, but I killed the engine so many times it just felt like neutral-LOL. That first night I became a pro at starting it. I do know for sure that weaving was not the first thing we did on the bikes. After the first night on the range I wanted to quit, go home and cry, but I didn't. As a fellow co-worker/rider asked "Do you know more now than you did yesterday at this time? If the answer is yes, then it is worth going back because improvement is an ongoing process."

Overall, I had a good experience with MSF BRC. The instructors were very patient. Out of 12 people, only 3 of us had not ridden before. The rest of the class took us under their wings and gave us tips, support, and high fives when we were successful.

Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to spending much time here [:)]

]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF Completed!jmanfredhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10665&REPLY_ID=104052Rider Training Courses Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:13:30 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10665 Thank you!! :)]]>Rider Training Courses - Change is coming to Rider's Edge....dhalen32http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10639&REPLY_ID=103702Rider Training Courses Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:03:25 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10639 I run a Rider's Edge program. I have been assured that Blasts will continue to be available. I should be able to order replacements for half of my training fleet early next year for delivery in July of 2010. I'll let you know if I am advised that some other machine will be taking the Blasts' place.
Dave
]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF BRC Let Down (Warning- Long)bachman1961http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10504&REPLY_ID=103657Rider Training Courses Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:11:34 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10504
quote:
Originally posted by SkootchNC
Please fill out your student evaluation form, and name the instructors.

regards,
Frank



+1 SkootchNC

Brian250;

Send them a short note of your experience as constructive criticism so it won't sound like sour grapes. Add to that in your closing that they can contact you if they want to probe further for your input or experiences. They may just toss toss it out but it would be encouraging if they did at least acknowledge and thank you for sharing your experience.

~brian]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider Trainingjmanfredhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10630&REPLY_ID=103589Rider Training Courses Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:46:30 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10630 Jerry,
Being that I'm 56 years young and a "late bloomer" as far as becoming a biker, I chose a 6 day course, three hours / day. More time to assimilate. It was this past week Mon. Wed. & Friday and next week the same. Mondays are classroom. Wed. & Fri are range. This was the 1st time I did the cone weave so my 1st pass was poor but I think I improved with each subsequent pass. I missed the coaches stop signal on the last quick stop drill because I was focused on the cone markers I had been use to the 1st 4 times through. I know it is just like the real world in that things come up without warning! On the quick stop and downshift with the coach on the other side, I did not push down the shift lever firm enough to get solid into 1st gear. This is something I have done in my on road practice so many times without even thinking about it and I flubbed it on the course. Go figure! Hence.. my frustration with my performance today! Thanks for your good words in reply. It means a lot coming from a rider coach!:)
-- Jim


quote:
Originally posted by Axiom2000

Jmanfred,
I am confused about how many days your BRC lasts. Generally, the range exercises take two days, yet you said you have completed the first half and reference issues you had on the second day?

If you have been riding for two seasons you should do well in the BRC, your advice to yourself about not getting cocky and to listen and do what is told is right on. Being a little anxious about the riding evaluation is a good thing just don't get so worked up, it inhibits your performance. Listen and do your best, more than likely it will be good enough. If you are successful, what is really important is that you take your new found skills to a parking lot and perfect them before venturing out in traffic. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Jerry
]]>Rider Training Courses - New Here...? about MSF RiderCourseAxiom2000http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10462&REPLY_ID=103499Rider Training Courses Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:16:14 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10462
quote:
As far as looking down, from a new-rider's perspective the entire course is about the cones...not the bike. I don't think it really has anything at all to do with balance, it has to do with staying "in the lines".


Motorcycles tend to travel towards where the operator is looking. At the extreme it is know as Target Fixation, for an interesting read on the dangers of this you should read Tip # 069.

It appears to me as if you are fixating on the cones, the course is not about the cones it is about you learning the objectives of each of the exercises. All the cones do is provide a general path of travel and lend order to the exercises. TWC is correct your peripheral vision will provide all the information you need about the location of the cones. In fact, if your head and eyes are up, looking through your path of travel the chances of you hitting a cone are slim. Even if you, while doing the exercises, hit a cone or two or three it's no biggie. Concentrate on where you want to go and how the mototcycle feels when you making it go there and forget the cones.
]]>Rider Training Courses - Thoughts from my BRCwldsydhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10163&REPLY_ID=103325Rider Training Courses Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:46:43 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10163 As an MSF coach I wanted to address your "downshift" issue. The reason you are trained to downshift during an emergency or quick stop is so that you can be in a position to move the bike again (quickly) if need be! You might have to re-start or swerve around another vehicle or other object and that's hard to do if you are sitting there in 3/4/5th gear -- however, if you have trained yourself to downshift as part of the braking process, then you are all ready to go at a milisecond's notice!]]>Rider Training Courses - ERC CommentsOBhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10404&REPLY_ID=103294Rider Training Courses Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:30:36 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10404 You said you were taught:

--Nothing at all was said about counter steering. Pressing down on the handle bar in the direction of the intended turn (press down on the right to turn right) was taught.

Yikes, that is not right! Press forward, not down, is the correct instruction.]]>Rider Training Courses - Indiana program.OBhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10570&REPLY_ID=103268Rider Training Courses Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:39:26 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10570 In Texas, you must sign a more restrictive agreement to be a Rider Coach. ATGATT, not only at a training event.

quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32

DD:
ABATE is an organization that participates in rider education in many states. In general, they do a pretty decent job of separating their political agenda from the rider education function they perform. If you live in or near Indiana just keep an eye on them and keep them honest when it comes to walking the walk with regards to helmet and protective gear use.

They are very active in training new riders in Iowa and we keep a close eye on the message they convey both in the classroom and on the training range. The only problem I am personally aware of regarding ABATE RiderCoach helmet use occurred last fall when a number of them rolled up to a training event helmetless and we needed to remind them of the rules of conduct that they all signed upon becoming MSF RiderCoaches.

Like Gymnast, I worry about the role models they are for new students and what they say to their students when we are not around.

For what it is worth, in my 20 years of MSF training experience, ABATE has always been deeply involved in Indiana's rider training program and any interaction I have had with their upper echelon has always been very serious and professional. They seem to be doing and saying all the right things whenever I have worked with them.
Dave


]]>Rider Training Courses - What comes after BRC?gymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10506&REPLY_ID=102807Rider Training Courses Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:02:18 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10506 The question of what form and content a formal "follow on" course to the BRC would incorporate is one that I have "kicked around" in my own mind for many years. The "sportbike course" is one approach. On the other hand, a course that has it's foundations in a "mandate" is, in my opinion, a poor model.

I have always believed that motorcycle safety and rider training courses should be created and conducted as a "self supporting endeavor". This means that the content and quality need to be both attractive, and have value.

One way of approaching the design of a follow-on course is for experts to identify, examine, and discuss the specific "areas of concern" or "weakness" of graduates of the current BRC or equivalent courses and develop a consensus.

For instance, it seems obvious that since instruction is off street, thought should go back to the original concepts that lead to the development of "vehicle driving ranges" that lead to drills ("Streets and Alleys", Night Practice"),incorporating a controlled traffic mix. The original (non MSF) basic courses developed at SIU-C Safety Center between 1972 and 1977 did exactly that. The "Multiple Car Method" concepts for vehicle driving range use were never incorporated into any iteration of MSF courses to my knowledge or recollection. Drills which provide for situational interaction between the riders in traffic situations should be part of a basic course prior to licensing in my opinion.

Clutch and front brake use skills need to be emphasized in the development of any follow on course and incorporated into increasingly complex "multi-tasking" drills. Follow on courses need to to introduce skills and factors relating to safe practices involved in carrying a passenger.

And on and on and so fourth. On a scale of 1 to 10, current practices and policy as pertain to motorcycle safety and rider education under the leadership of the MSF rate about a 2 over the past 35+ years and that is being generous. The promise of motorcycle safety and rider training, has become mired and stagnated around the concept of the license waiver. This needs to change!

]]>Rider Training Courses - BRC, what parts would you improve and howrayg50http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=9659&REPLY_ID=102616Rider Training Courses Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:03:53 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9659 My apology to both for only using "sound bites" as quotes. I found myself in reading this exchange of ideas in the unusual position of agreeing with both points of view almost totally.

quote:
Originally posted by aidanspa

... but I think the missing link is providing a bridge for the disconnect novice riders are left with between BRC and the streets ...

... How do new riders become more experienced and learn to manage risk more effectively? By trial and error! They have no other choice ....

... They are learning to how to think about risk and how best to manage it ON THEIR OWN ...


+1

I usually see something funny in everything so I was trying to find a humorous way to start this reply. I could not find it because the quotes above pretty much sums up my current situation with one major difference, this forum and it's members.

Having survived, so far [:u], I can say that the distance from that BRC parking lot to the streets is pretty far. I am currently in limbo. Definitely not the beginner I was a couple of months ago but not the minimally skilled rider I need to be. Yet often I wonder how many others were or are in my situation and did not find their way to this forum. I wonder what the result has been or will be for them. Not to imply that the jury is in for me or for any of us for that matter.

I am liking my chances because my mental game is just so much higher than that of the experienced riders that I do know. In time PLP will get my physical game up to where it needs to be. All the PLP in the world will not do anything for their mental game.

From the move Starman:

Red means stop.
Green means go.
Yellow means go faster.

Thanks to this forum and the unfortunate circumstance of having to make things up "on my own" that bike you may see at the fire hydrant or bus stop waiting for the stale light to go red is probably me. I just pretend to check the bike [8D]. My mental game recognizes the risk of the car behind me accelerating to make the light while I want to slow and stop. So I just sit that dance out for now until I can make up something better [:D].

quote:
Originally posted by Axiom2000
... taking a BRC is already like drinking from a fire hose ...

... if the successful completion of the BRC did not grant an automatic "M" endorsement then many, maybe not all, of the issues with the curriculum and what it teaches or lacks would not seem as serious ...

... The prerequisite for the BRC II would be ...


+1

I think valid considerations are raised here. I think solutions are offered.

The thoughts that run through my mind are how to make them palatable to the current powers that be. What benefit ($$) is in it for them? Would switching the schedule to allow time between the range days for "homework" help (one day on, one day off)? Would the additional revenue of the BRC II more than offset the loss of revenue from those riders that would then elect to do it on their own?

This exchange, that I have enjoyed reading, has a loftier goal than the original thread but I feel the timing is right for the discussion.

quote:


... The only risk they would need to manage is what they find in an empty parking lot ...



This concept is the only one that gave me pause. How does the beginner get the bike to the parking lot if they do not have a support system? The riders I know personally are not close enough to be available to even give me bad advice [(#)] with regularity. So my PLP has been prefaced by a ride through traffic, sometimes pretty heavy. "Easy" now, but the first couple of times were definitely white knuckle moments.

]]>Rider Training Courses - NWMS Ride Like A CopSteam.Airmanhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10256&REPLY_ID=102576Rider Training Courses Thu, 02 Jul 2009 11:13:50 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10256 Thanks...I've been lurking at this site and forum for about two years, since being certified as a MSF-BRC instructor.

I am attending a 4 day class this month (full price) instead of the $175 1 day refresher. While the refresher would probably suffice, I valued the training from the 4 day class in '06 enough that I consider coughing up the full price for all 4 days "money well spent."

I must admit that part of my justification for traveling from the Chicago suburbs to Renton, WA, is to visit friends, but I'd still travel there solely for the class as some of my previous classmates did. (I am staying at a hotel and renting a car for the visit but letting frequent flyer miles pay my air transportation costs.)
]]>Rider Training Courses - MSF training deaths increase - but it's just a matter of 'health'twchttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10497&REPLY_ID=102573Rider Training Courses Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:09:59 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10497
quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32

I hope this helps a bit to explain and quantify incident reporting for you.
It does, and what you are doing is exactly the way I would want it done if I ran the program. Mining those data will (hopefully) give you information for continuous improvement. There seems to be a lot of variability, but it's not clear if that's the result of an imprecise process or individual interpretation and/or execution of a well-defined process.

I'm undecided about disclosure. In a perfect world, I think this information would be shared so that others could learn from it. Training could benefit from a Hurt-like study. But it's not a perfect world; in fact, we live in a very litigious world and information like this could be used against you.

quote:
Our worst property damage incident was a riderless bike T-boning our Parts Manager's parked Porsche 944 and if I owned the Buell Blast turn signal franchise in the U.S. I'm certain that I would be a rich man! [:D]
For the record, I took my BRC as the Rider's Edge program at Thunder Mountain Harley-Davidson. Our instructors were fantastic, never missing an opportunity to help you improve your performance. Don't know if they're still teaching the course, but I couldn't say enough good things about them. I'm certain I learned things that will one day save my life.

The Buell Blast? Well, nothing's perfect. I really didn't think much of the bike, but it did the job. I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but I don't think there was an unbroken turn signal in the lot of them. There was only one near drop in our class, but an instructor saw it coming and magically appeared in time to provide added support and save it. Other than that, no "incidents."

All but one person passed the class; to my eye, everyone did a reasonable job during the testing process and deserved to pass. The one woman who did not pass dropped out at her request during the class. She was having a lot of trouble killing the engine when starting out and felt that she was holding the others back. One of the instructors was going to work with her on the side then bring her back for a future class. The students talked about her withdrawal after the class. Not one of us thought she should have quit. She was doing as well as anyone once she got rolling.]]>Rider Training Courses - Well Managed or Poorly Managed?twchttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10505&REPLY_ID=102543Rider Training Courses Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:45:15 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10505
quote:
Originally posted by D R

I've included the text of the post below (cut and pasted as written from the other site) for reading and would be interested in hearing others comments and observations.
My first blush reaction to this is that I wish I could run it through a hyperbole filter. There are just too many things that sound like exaggerations: "I was watching the 3 day early class people runnin amok on their training bikes," "Musta dropped her bikes a dozen+ times," "...and Tinygirl also plonked down her Rebel a few times," etc. I also question the "highside" story, but I concede that it's possible.

I got the impression that, unlike the person he labelled as the "Cool Dude," the author actually thinks of himself as the cool dude of the class, even to the extent of minimizing his error on the swerve during the test (which I didn't think you were allowed to repeat).

There's just something about this story that doesn't ring quite true. I contrast it with Brian250's tale, which (sadly) does have the ring of truth to it.]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider's Edge - Evidence mountsgymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=5434&REPLY_ID=102539Rider Training Courses Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:36:11 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5434 Hmmm. Crashes as coincidence! Seems that someone is trying to peg the BS meter. I wonder if they are in the habit of tossing cards as well? Maybe it can all be explained away with Monte Carlo Theory and belief in predestination. Perhaps the "statistics of rare events and poisson distributions" might lend insight? Or perhaps treat the events from the standpoint of negligence and leave "coincidence" out entirely. Maybe irony will serve as an explanation, two people killed in a "safety training" program. Perhaps the crashes were "propaganda" of some sort? However how could they be propaganda if they were a real result?

Just lagging pennies and that's about 2 cents worth.]]>Rider Training Courses - Team Oregon Motorcycle Safety ProgramBadMomhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=5527&REPLY_ID=102383Rider Training Courses Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:21:21 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5527
quote:
Originally posted by stenbock

My experience with the highly touted and over-rated Team Oregon motor cycle training course is awful.


stenbock,
I'm sorry you had such a poor experience with the Team Oregon class you took. I hope you voiced your feelings to the instructors and/or have since sent Team Oregon class evaluation feedback.

I have taken all of the Team Oregon classes and found them to be very valuable. I do not believe they are over-rated particularly because Oregonian motorcyclists have the lowest crash and fatality rate in the U.S. and this is due primarily to the superb training, materials, and the conscientious, dedicated Team Oregon staff members who give up their weekends to try to help riders improve their chances of surviving the streets and highways of Oregon.

Did I understand correctly that you have upgraded from a Sportster to a Soft-tail? Or that the dealer wanted to upgrade a first purchase from a smaller less expensive bike to a larger more expensive bike?
Please elaborate?
]]>Rider Training Courses - Throttle Limitersaddleupjeffhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10442Rider Training Courses Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:54:08 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10442
We, as a company, decided to install the throttle limiter because of the possibility of the runaway problem. We had slight problems with it yes. The limiter has offered us the oppotunity to teach the fine control that a beginning rider needs to understand. As you know, we were teaching classes for three years before we became involved with Riders Edge.

The problem with the sponsor is not the runaway issue. The problem lies with the "alteration" of the motorcycle in the event of a crash on the range where there could be an injury. The Buell engineers have not seen the device and have not done any testing on it, so HD is not in support of it because of that.

In our experience, the limiter is the answer to this "problem" with the Buell as a training platform. The only real differences with the NRC/BRC are the activities conducted at the dealership and the use of the "Roadbook". Oh, and we get cake. Not as good as doughnuts, but we will take it.]]>Rider Training Courses - ABATE Helmet Roast.aidanspahttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10368&REPLY_ID=101862Rider Training Courses Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:02:14 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10368 Welcome to the site, Steve! Congratulations on completing your BRC and taking what is hopefully just the first step in your continued learning process. Please take time to read the Safety Tips (in red above Logout), purchase and memorize "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough, and make up your mind to devote the first part of each ride to a few minutes of PLP. Ask lots of questions. Looking forward to your participation!

Edit: typo]]>Rider Training Courses - ERCKLShttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10328&REPLY_ID=101254Rider Training Courses Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:52:08 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10328 Boomer Biker, http://genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Braking.htm, is one writer who advocates use of the front brake only on good traction surfaces. Other than this, most of his recommendations parallel Mr. Davis'.

Engine braking to enter a turn plus additional braking late in a turn when the speed is found to be too high is a problem. Much better to get all the needed speed reduction done before the turn apex in additional to the brake light signal to following drivers.]]>Rider Training Courses - Throttle Governor / Limitergymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10349&REPLY_ID=101253Rider Training Courses Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:39:01 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10349 Gary, Bingo. Is a blast unsafe as a training bike without a throttle stop? Does the Blast have too much power to be safely used as a training bike for beginning riders? Why in the case of the course you mentioned did the instructors feel it necessary to limit the bikes performance?

The horse is out of the barn on this one and the Motor Company is, in my opinion, a looser for bringing up the subject one way or the other. Buell Blast training deaths are a matter of record and anyone injured in a riders edge course now has a ready made issue that could imply negligence on the part of HD and the course provider.]]>Rider Training Courses - Rioguy's Delayed Apex Curves Videoscottrnelsonhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10301&REPLY_ID=100852Rider Training Courses Fri, 29 May 2009 09:16:37 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10301
quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

Scott, a special request to you. Can I have permission to use the pictures you took of the off camber road? I'll give attribution to you.
Yes, you may use those photos. I took them for educational purposes and am happy to have them used to help educate others.

Was there going to be any actual "video" in your video? Just curious.

What I think would be useful is to follow someone into a turn to see where they let off of the brakes compared to where they start turning. I don't know how hard it would be to show with actual photos or video how far you can see through the turn.

You've picked an ambitious project.]]>Rider Training Courses - What are the 17 MSF BRC range exercies?James R. Davishttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10188&REPLY_ID=100065Rider Training Courses Wed, 13 May 2009 16:15:15 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10188 Just so we are on the same page ... I did not aegue or even suggest that a student who makes a mistake should be tossed out of the class. In fact, I specifically stated that a single drop of a bike could be overlooked, but that as of the second drop such a student should be shown the door.

Dropping a bike is not a simple 'mistake' - it is a total loss of control. If you can't learn better control after the first drop, you are dangerous on a motorcycle.]]>Rider Training Courses - Recent RLAP class experienceNight Trainhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10186&REPLY_ID=99905Rider Training Courses Sun, 10 May 2009 00:51:37 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10186 What do you mean "old age"? You are as young as I am[(#)]]]>Rider Training Courses - Curriculum changesgymnasthttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10158&REPLY_ID=99705Rider Training Courses Wed, 06 May 2009 13:54:59 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10158 There are many formal and informal styles of teaching as well as learning and some are more appropriate than others depending on the the nature to the subject matter and content, the nature of the teacher and the characteristics of the learners. The field of education tends to follow fads in much the same way that weight loss plans are touted, with testimonials and advertising substituting for valid research and proven results.

Coaching success is ultimately measured in win-loss records and in the case of motorcycle safety and rider training the won loss record is not the number of students completing courses or drivers licenses issued or motorcycles purchased by course participants. The win loss criterion for motorcycle safety and rider training is the comparative criterion of crash-injured-killed VS not crash-not injured-not killed where motorcycle safety and rider training is the intervening variable. Programs, content, and teaching methods that not ultimately measured against valid criteria are just testimonials, press releases, smoke and mirrors. A program based upon it's use of public funds, in part or whole, to reduce crash losses needs be based on more than press releases, testimonials, smoke, and mirrors. If it cannot, it's usefulness is dubious at best. The whole program is the sum of it's parts and the reality is that no program has "proven itself". This is not to say that programs, content and instructional methods cannot be proven to be effective and eventually that some may be proven to be more effective than others.

]]>Rider Training Courses - Kevin Schwantz School Gets Nod From MSFbiocoachhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10156&REPLY_ID=99684Rider Training Courses Wed, 06 May 2009 10:07:41 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10156 I was actually surprised when his demonstration at the pentagon safety day was simply doing exercises from the sportbike course... in full leathers... on a race bike...]]>Rider Training Courses - Should you ride a motorcycle?EH2Zeehttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10123&REPLY_ID=99444Rider Training Courses Sun, 03 May 2009 00:29:45 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10123
quote:
[i] For those people who have no concept of what owning or riding a motorcycle is and are thinking of pursuing the purchase of a bike, this list certainly provides some fodder for reflection.

I'm just a newbie here. Went through the course after 40yrs away from motorcylces. Got the license (and got a bike I "could afford to drop [:)] )" and am off and having weekend fun.

My point here is that by-and-large - it's only the careful/thoughtful guys that think of taking this essential basic skills course.

Conversely the (and I quote "people who have no concept..."), self-declared "invincibles" - who need this the most - are those that will never even do a google search for this list. And that's the pity.

How do we get the message out beyond the audience that listens to the preaching to the choir sessions?

For example - my insurance agent did not want to have my certificate of completion for the Two Wheel Safety Training course completion when I bought insurance for the new (to me) bike. He said "let's just get the better discount based upon your multi-year (car) driving record. That's just plain wrong but it shows the magnitude of the lack of percieved importance of the skills and safety.

I was shocked - no devastated.

But I'm having fun in my controlled, staged way. Next week we go into third gear (Kidding!).


]]>Rider Training Courses - Texas Targets Sportbikes With Training MandateTecpatl4http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10128&REPLY_ID=99398Rider Training Courses Fri, 01 May 2009 14:50:57 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10128
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast

Texas has proposed "specific" legislation requiring training for riders of "Sportbikes and High Performance Motorcycles".


A couple of things to note here:

The bill has been introduced, not voted on. A friend of mine works for the Ohio legislature and tells me that there are numerous silly bills tht are introduced, but never go anywhere. In fact, many times the person introducing them knows they don't have a chance, but do it anyways as a favor to some constituent or to make a name for themselves.


The article included a quote: "As a 16-year-old, you're not allowed to just get in the car and take the keys and drive off, so why would we allow bikers to do it?" . That is partially correct in that you have to have driver training. But once a person has completed that traiing they can drive whatever kind of car they like. Imagine if a kid was told he can only drive a 4 cylinder car. Besides, once they are 18 it doesn't matter, training is not required to get a drivers license, only passing the test (unless something changed since I left).

Lastly, it bases the definition on manufacturers marketing materials. So a Ninja 250 would be included, but a 1500cc cruiser wouldn't.

Basically the bill is silly, and most likely unconstitutional. I really don't think it has much of a chance.




]]>Rider Training Courses - ERC experienceScooter riderhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10110&REPLY_ID=99325Rider Training Courses Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:08:19 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10110 I know we here in Ohio are getting a bargain.
For the ERC the passenger pays 25 as well but still a bargain.

Gos to show you give 50 sates the same thing to administrate

You will have 50 ways to administrate it.[:)]]]>Rider Training Courses - US Army Motorcycle Risk-Management WorksheetWoofhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=10093&REPLY_ID=99185Rider Training Courses Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:00:06 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10093 The USN and USMC have already "targeted" all riders as a whole, although I've seen message traffic suggesting that certain riders (young/first enlistment/fresh from deployment) may be more at-risk than others. USN policy defines and mandates the use of PPE, mandates the MSF BRC prior to riding (both on base and off, for service members), mandates PPE and the BRC for DoD civilians riding on base, and mandates either the ERC or the MSRC (Military Sport Bike Rider Course) as follow-on (w/in 60 days) and recurrent (every 3 years) training for both military and civilian personnel. The USMC also requires that an individual's chain of command be notified of either the intention to purchase a bike or the ownership of a bike; I believe that part of the intent is to have mentors steer potential riders to suitable beginner bikes. Marines are also required to participate in command riding clubs. Failure to wear PPE and riding without MSF course completion (or a license, for that matter) are punishable under the UCMJ (the "failure to obey a lawful order" catch-all).

I can't really think of anything else that could be forced upon a military rider that would make them better prepared; mandatory PPE and MSF course completion already give them a leg up on a lot of civilian riders, in my opinion (your mileage may vary, of course, depending on your view of MSF courses). A riding ban would seem to me to be the next step, although I'm hoping that all components share the Army's belief that banning riding would only drive riders off-base and "underground." Could the military approach to motorcycle training/riding be applied positively in the civilian world? Sure, I think, but at a greater cost in $$ and time, and potentially a bit of push-back from lobbying/rights groups.]]>Rider Training Courses - Rider education DEATHS on the rise!Baggsyhttp://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=4576&REPLY_ID=99136Rider Training Courses Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:57:11 -0500http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4576 It might be interesting to find out if there is any correlation between the increase in deaths and the increase in torque and/or top speed in first gear on motorcycles used for the course over the years.

Where I took my test they went from 125 cc dirt bikes to 250 cc Virago cruisers.

With the dirt bikes you needed to get up to 2nd or 3rd gear to pass the tests, with the cruisers you can get barely fast enough without shifting any gears.

]]>