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 All Forums
 Motorcycle Safety
 Roadcraft
  OVERTAKING
 My observations on another video.
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1693 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit
Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 06/25/2009 :  11:05 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend                        Like
Hopefully this is an appropriate use of associated topics.

In the other thread, discussion also included differences in geography, traffic congestion, availability of passing lines, as well as local traffic laws.

I've viewed this video several times. Nigel sent me this and a list of a few others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6MweL9wrpg

It says it is a recent graduate doing commentary riding for the first time, with apparently an instructor or experienced rider following with a camera.

In light of the differences discussed about "local" conditions, my take on the pass that began around the 2:08 mark is that the camera bike followed in the overtaking where I personally would not have.

An opposing car came by about a second, hard to time exactly, after the camera bike was fully back into his own lane. Too close for my comfort, even if while watching the video it doesn't seem too close a call. A little later on the same road, they said the speed limit was 60mph. I'll just assume that was the speed of the bikes, and the opposing car. I just had the notion that the camera bike was possibly spending too much attention to the following, or maybe was too intent on not wanting to interupt the flow of the tape. It was a long pass also, 2 cars and one of which was pulling a trailer.

Of course, the comfort level, time and distances are inprecise, but I know I would not have been comfortable in that space.

Off topic somewhat, but as they both passed driveway entrances onto the road they were on, I noticed no mention of them. At times during a right bend in the road, with driveways on their left, they would drift wide to the left to set up the corner. I'd rather have been to the right and visible sooner to anyone coming out of the driveways. On my local roads, driveway entrances onto country roads are to me, lower frequency, but potentially higher penalty hazards. I think going the speed limit or thereabouts, removes the need to set up a gentle bend in the road, when you'd rather BE visible to the driveways. (drifting wide at entrance, cutting in on the apex, and drifting wide again on exit).

I don't intend to call them wrong, only that I personally might have a different "mindset" on that road, on that day.

aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1739 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/25/2009 :  11:38 AM
I agree with your observations. The first overtake you mentioned at 2:08 seemed rushed (to me). I didn't observe the rider taking and maintaining a hold-back position behind the TV. It appears as though he maintained his speed and approach to the TV and then went immediately to the POC. The bigger concern is that the camera bike followed the rider immediately into the oncoming lane, while still quite a long way back from the TV. His time of exposure was huge.

It looks to me too as though the camera bike was concentrating more on keeping the rider in frame than on, as Nigel has said:
quote:
...wanting to make progress but, very willing to hold back and completely check out the situation first.


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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 06/25/2009 :  1:06 PM
I didn't see a problem at all with that overtake at around 2:00. My interpretation was that he got a good view up the nearside prior to moving to the ready position, went out with a mindset of "Is there a reason not to go" and then went for it. The trail rider had an even longer and better view, and was able to be well back on his own side with a full 2 seconds to spare even while being cautious about pulling in to the gap in front of the heavy...
Had I been the trail rider I might have gone a little harder during the overtake...
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James_B
Male Starting Member
3 Posts


Taunton, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Posted - 06/25/2009 :  2:53 PM
I have to agree with Nigel that it wasn't the best approach and excution. Of course any seriously passionate advanced driver/rider can be critical of themself as much as others.

@4:21 he passes a junction with a transit tipper possibly stopped and no mention of whether he had checked that and cleared up the threat.

@5:06 the video bike rider fails to anticipate the front bike slowing and closes up far to tight.

@5:18 the rider is accelerating while moving offside which is not stricly correct. You should get offside and check before apply power. He should of moved into a contact position as he failed to do so b4 the broken white lane came. There is research to suggest it takes the average road user 3-4 seconds to acknowledge a turn signal so its use as he goes offside and accelerates is unecessary in my mind.

Thats just my observations from the first 5 or so mins. I am student of Nigels from the Taunton Rospa Group only 27 years old and Nigel's understanding of roadcraft and driving is truely remarkable. I have trained with Nigel and I am now on my way to becoming a Tutor with our Rospa Group. I thought I would join and give a Younger perpective on things as roadcraft can be for any age road user with the right mindset.

I can't stress how critical to have a correct mindset. The reason the system starts with SAFETY comes first in the system is because if the situation doesn't clear that first point then its not on. VIEW AND STABILITY only come in that order as that is there order of importance. Position for view and then if appropriate stability ie following a straight course where possible to minimise corner forces as straight line if the most stable course subject to it being and providing the right view.



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aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1739 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/25/2009 :  3:13 PM
Welcome to the site, James! Glad to have your aboard, and we look forward to your continued participation.

We won't hold it against you that you are a student of Nigel's.
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advancedbiker
New Member
13 Posts


BIDDULPH, STAFFORDSHIRE
United Kingdom

Honda

VFR800

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  2:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James_B

I have to agree with Nigel that it wasn't the best approach and excution. Of course any seriously passionate advanced driver/rider can be critical of themself as much as others.

@4:21 he passes a junction with a transit tipper possibly stopped and no mention of whether he had checked that and cleared up the threat.

@5:06 the video bike rider fails to anticipate the front bike slowing and closes up far to tight.

@5:18 the rider is accelerating while moving offside which is not stricly correct. You should get offside and check before apply power. He should of moved into a contact position as he failed to do so b4 the broken white lane came. There is research to suggest it takes the average road user 3-4 seconds to acknowledge a turn signal so its use as he goes offside and accelerates is unecessary in my mind.

Thats just my observations from the first 5 or so mins. I am student of Nigels from the Taunton Rospa Group only 27 years old and Nigel's understanding of roadcraft and driving is truely remarkable. I have trained with Nigel and I am now on my way to becoming a Tutor with our Rospa Group. I thought I would join and give a Younger perpective on things as roadcraft can be for any age road user with the right mindset.

I can't stress how critical to have a correct mindset. The reason the system starts with SAFETY comes first in the system is because if the situation doesn't clear that first point then its not on. VIEW AND STABILITY only come in that order as that is there order of importance. Position for view and then if appropriate stability ie following a straight course where possible to minimise corner forces as straight line if the most stable course subject to it being and providing the right view.





Thank you for the comments, but to be a good tutor, you need to have a balanced approach. To me it is all negative, and if I was new to this Advanced Training, I would have second thoughts about coming back for another lesson.
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gymnast
Moderator
4265 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  3:07 PM
It is extremely difficult to record instructional material without a script and many many takes in order to get the camera angles, points of emphasis etc. I believe that this U-Tube recording is quite helpful in demonstrating a one on one instructional technique and it is a record of the student comment the commentary driving technique is quite useful in analyzing a students information input and processing abilities. The technical aspects of the recording, while interesting, are not the main point of the presentation.

The rider being filmed is the learner, and it is the discussion that takes place between the student and the instructor that determines the effectiveness of the improvement of the rider. The techniques is an excellent example of the type of activity that mentoring is all about.

About 37 years ago a person who was a curriculum development expert at the MSF suggested that this technique be used with groups of complete novice riders during the concluding hour or so of a basic course in a formation consisting of a lead instructor and an assistant instructor with 1 way radio communication to the students (All of whom had not ridden before the basic course and were between 16 and 20 years of age). I explained my reasons, which were many as to why it would be a "less than ideal activity" and pointed out what I saw as the drawbacks.

The video recording above shows a far more reasoned as well as a fundamentally different type of instruction than that which was proposed by the curriculum director so many years ago. What the video demonstrates is a type of one on one instruction wherein the learner has previously mastered the controls and basic skills and knowledge that are contained in a basic or experienced riders course and has accumulated perhaps as much as several years of experience riding in a variety of conditions and, most importantly, is sufficiently motivated to voluntarily spend the time, effort, and money to become a better rider.

The concept of teach a beginning rider, "one on one", first on an off street closed area and then as a series of increasingly complex in traffic exercises was introduced to North America, first in Canada, later in the US over 40 years ago by Stuart Munro who was a very bright motorcyclist who immigrated from the UK. I will note that the method differs only slightly from that of formal one on one instruction to teach someone to operate virtually any vehicle. "Roadcraft" is one of many such teaching-mentoring endeavors that has been developed over a long period of time and "systematized".

-edit. Had to break away, the World Superbike Races at Donington just started on the "telly".
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advancedbiker
New Member
13 Posts


BIDDULPH, STAFFORDSHIRE
United Kingdom

Honda

VFR800

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  3:21 PM
TRAINING:

When I first did my first Police Advanced Motorcycle Course I had to know Roadcraft from front to back and on reflection did not really take much of it in. That is how it was done then in the late 1980's. Since then I have become an intructor, and have qualifications in Training and Development. I like to try different ways to get riders to become involved in the development, hence the bike to bike communcation and getting the rider to say more. It does seem to work with my teaching technique. It also tells me the radio is working. This Advanced riding has to practicla and flexible is its application.
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advancedbiker
New Member
13 Posts


BIDDULPH, STAFFORDSHIRE
United Kingdom

Honda

VFR800

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  3:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast



Had to break away, the World Superbike Races at Donington just started on the "telly".


Spent the last two days passing Donnington, have been doing some work with driver assessments - Doing a video of the drive out inn their cars. The weekend was with the UK Chevrolet Corvette CLUB - Some very nice American Muscle Cars.......
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aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1739 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  9:58 PM
Welcome to the site advancedbiker! Looking forward to your continued participation.
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advancedbiker
New Member
13 Posts


BIDDULPH, STAFFORDSHIRE
United Kingdom

Honda

VFR800

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  2:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aidanspa

Welcome to the site advancedbiker! Looking forward to your continued participation.



Hope I can help. I am not one of those forums users who writes endless comments. I look at the overall picture.

Regards

Nigel
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