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 Video clips - Thames Valley police motorcyclist
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:05 AM                       Like
Thanks to YouTube we can view a number of really useful video clips which can highlight key areas of Roadcraft and illustrate many of the points we are discussing.

For starters here is one of a Thames Vally police motorcyclist taken from a helicopter with excellent voice-over. Those who have had the articles/items on Understanding System (presuming they have already bought Motorcycle Roadcraft), Positioning and Overtaking then this video clip will also highlight the refined skills of a top flight advanced motorcyclist who demonstrates a really progressive (not aggressive) ride in complete safety (subject to previous comments in the thread on System)and in a completely smooth and fluid manner. Very much a case of the superior brain avoiding having to take superior actions; he is never in a position of vulnerability.

For me it is a real pleasure to watch this skill level which only comes with a lot of focused and careful practice built up over a long period of time. The use of camera in a helicopter makes it much easier to view the rider's actions in context with the situation around him. I look forward to the comments this generates.

THAMES VALLEY. Motorcyclist from helicopter with good voice over.
5.56 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yqy...ture=channel
Good for positioning, hold-back and o/t.
Excellent.

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17292 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:12 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
... who demonstrates a really progressive (not aggressive) ride in complete safety ...


That's the second time you have decided to declare that riding a motorcycle can be done in 'complete safety', and this is the second admonition to cease and desist. There will not be a third.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:29 AM
James. I did clearly say 'subject to previous comments in the thread on System', so the comment was qualified relative to your previous admonition! I was being careful with my words, so I suggest the first correct stands, but not the second.
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17292 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:42 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Nigel,

We have millions of readers of these posts, MOST of whom are not members and only a tiny fraction of them have read your other wiggle room post. The information posted on this site stands on its own in terms of reliability and credibility. Though I understand the wordsmithing involved in your post above in an attempt to get around the meaning of the phrase 'complete safety', nevertheless words DO have meaning and that phrase will NEVER be allowed to go unchallenged on this site. It is a DANGEROUS misrepresentation of fact and it discredits the Roadcraft program.
quote:
I was being careful with my words, so I suggest the first correct stands, but not the second.
If being careful precludes using 'relative' instead of 'complete', then we have a major problem here. Pretend all you want that the second admonition doesn't count, but if that phrase appears here again, then the entire Roadcraft forum will cease to exist.

Is that clear enough?
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  2:18 AM
Clear enough and absolute enough, James. You pre-empted me because I was about to start a thread called, Absolute Safety?, which would have qualified that yes, there are remote instances, and they are remote - at least over here - where totally unforseen circumstances and ones beyond anyones control could, and indeed sometimes in isolation do, happen. However, these are so isolated - like the instance of the swans flying low over a motorway and causing a fatal accident collision - that they can almost be discounted because such is the increase in safety provided by schemes such as Roadcraft together with the all important correct mind-set, (ah, here we go again...). Well, enough said perhaps. But I think that separate thread, as per the provisio one, would be worthwhile, particularly in view of the comments you have made.

I don't know what a 'wiggle room post' is. And by way of explanation, there is no attempt to get around the phrase, 'complete safety'. Over here it is clearly understood that is the case bar extreme unforseen circumstances, that the rider or driver does have that means of control over their safety in all other circumstances and that they should practice with that mind-set in mind, as it were.

I think there might also be a slight paranoia going on here based on the fear of litigation (which is obviously paramount in the States) if the 'absolute statement' about safety is apparently made. Quite understood. So that's another reason why I feel a short thread qualifying this aspect would be useful.

Edited by - Nigel A on 07/01/2009 2:32 AM
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17292 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  2:38 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
I think there might also be a slight paranoia going on here based on the fear of litigation (which is obviously paramount in the States) if the 'absolute statement' about safety is apparently made. Quite understood.
The word 'complete' is not subtle. And, despite what you think you know about the 'obviously paramount' nature of our society, litigation is not at all paramount in my thought processes as regards usage of this phrase.

Believe it or not, a lot of our readers literally bet their lives on the content validity of the messages on this site. My concern is primarily that they should have cause to do so, though I make no warranty to that effect. We TRY hard, and I insist that 'we' includes all members (as they are the only ones who can post).
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Night Train
Male Advanced Member
1667 Posts
[Mentor]


Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada

Harley-Davidson

99 Sportster XL 1200

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  3:42 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Nigel,

James has pretty much spelled out my sentiments as well, relating to the term "complete safety" so there is no need to expound on that.

As far as the video is concerned, I agree that it, for the most part, depicts proper Positioning and Overtaking. Although it may well have been a case of the superior brain avoiding having to take superior actions, and performed by a top flight advanced motorcyclist, it is for the most part the manner in which I would expect any "seasoned" rider to perform regardless of credentials.

At or near the 5 minute mark of the video, the rider surprised me by moving completely into the oncoming lane on two occasions to line up for the approaching turn in the road. The fact that there was no oncoming traffic is immaterial, I feel that practice is ill advised and a dangerous one to get into the habit of doing. The proper method to negotiate a turn, in my opinion is to reduce speed, and negotiate the turn without crossing the line into the oncoming lane. I have always considered a vehicle of any kind that crosses the center line in the negotiating a turn as one that is being driven by an inexperienced driver/rider or one that is not in complete control of their vehicle, or alternately one who just simply believes they own the road and the hell with anyone else.

In most North American jurisdictions, crossing the center line when not engaged in overtaking another vehicle is an infraction. Certainly not a practice to be encouraged by a Motorcyle Safety Forum or an organization with the mandate to teach proper and safe riding.
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2082 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Peer Review: 2

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  6:59 AM
Nigel, in public and private correspondence I believe I have expressed support for your effort. I believe you do a disservice to what you are attempting to accomplish by insisting on using that phrase (qualified or not). It suggests an invulnerability it cannot deliver. It opens the door to the casual reader for a mindset that is the opposite of what you wish to achieve.

IMO, the learning process is the same for all humans regardless of background. Initially they know they do not know, so they are cautious and anxious to learn. They eventually reach the level where the do not know that they do not know and that is when they are most dangerous. If they "stick around" they can be moved past that point and forward to the first of realizing how much they do not know. They return to being cautious.

In academia you can move them past the dangerous stage by presenting them with a simple project whose solution is based upon principles yet unknown to them. In a coaching environment you can provide the similar experience by matching them against a superior obstacle. As my Brooklyn brethren would phrase it, "you throw them a good beating".

When you issue that statement I am sure in your mind you know that you are referring to someone who has put time into reading, understanding, and practicing (some of it spent under direct supervision) most likely for years. I am equally sure that you phrase it on the assumption that you are "speaking" to a target audience who you have moved to a point where the context is understood. That is not this environment.

In this environment I am climbing a set of very steep stairs with one hand extended up for help and the other down to offer help. In both instances I expect the the possibility of what is open to misinterpretation to be minimal. I depend upon the members of this forum to actively limit that possibility in what they post, in what I post, and in what others post, by way of challenge. I do not ask you to agree with the challenge to your phrase. I ask you to respect it.


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gymnast
Moderator
4267 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  8:19 AM
I am having a very difficult time separating the rider's "need" to travel to travel at a speed that is higher than that of the traffic flow in his direction of travel (particularly on a two-lane road where there appear to be hedgerows on either side restricting vision). The technique of crossing the center line to improve the view ahead is totally unacceptable and indicates a speed too fast for conditions. In the mountainous two-road conditions that I commonly encounter in my areas of riding, such a technique is not only legally unacceptable, it elevates risk to a foolishly high level.

Why so fast? I am having a great deal of difficulty justifying the elevated risk-reward equation that seems to be presented in this film clip.
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2082 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  9:07 AM
Can the terms nearside and farside be explained for me?

At the beginning of the video the riders use of the word nearside seems to reflect the shoulder side of the road but at 4:37 and 4:59 he talks about holding towards the nearside but is riding near the center line. He also says "outside" of the road in the video, leading me to believe these are conceptually different. I have noticed this also in other UK videos. I have taken it to be a reference to the entry point on a curve (bend) but I would rather know what it is than to guess.


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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  9:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

Can the terms nearside and farside be explained for me?




Nearside is the side of the road towards the shoulder. It's sometimes called the hedgerow side. Farside is the other side.
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2082 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  10:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

Nearside is the side of the road towards the shoulder. It's sometimes called the hedgerow side. Farside is the other side.



So if I am interpreting this correctly the nearside would be the shoulder side for a 2 way road. In US terms the nearside would always be the right side even on a multi-lane one way road. In the UK it would be the left side.

Thanks for the clarification, please correct me if I have misunderstood.

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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:18 PM
To clarify explicitly (this illustrates the difficulties of clarity ):

The nearside is the shoulder on your side of the road (right side in the US, left side in the UK) conceptually to the center line.
The farside, is the center line to the shoulder on the other side of the road (left side in the US, right side in the UK).

The area around the center line is also referred to as the 'crown of the road'.

'Moving to the nearside' refers to a movement towards the nearside shoulder.
'Keeping to the nearside' refers to not crossing the center line/
'Moving to the farside' refers to crossing the centerline.

Offside is more or less a synonym for farside.


______________________________________

Absent local laws, there is no intrinsic danger in using the farside of the road. Obviously it is a technique not to be taught to beginners (which is of great concern here, and we need to address that). Equally obviously, and as the commentary noted, it requires very high levels of caution and awareness, and explicit view of any potential oncoming traffic. I want to point out that there are many bends where that rider does not do so, he explicitly only does it where he is confident of its safety.

One major difference, between the US and the UK, is that the opportunity to do this at all is much less available in the US, mainly because of the common and increasing practice in the US of putting more and more double yellow lines on roads where only the 'driving challenged' could not safely overtake. Double Yellow lines, of course, absolutely prohibit this technique.

Edited to correct the last paragraph.

Edited by - The Meromorph on 06/28/2009 9:09 PM
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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  1:43 PM
This may be a slight diversion of the thread, but it's somewhat relevant, and you may find it interesting.

Prior to 1939, there where no white lines down the center of the road in the UK. The convention (and law) was that you passed an oncoming vehicle so that you went to the left side of the road, not that you drove on the left hand side of the road!

During the 'blackout' in 1939, when cars were required to have only 'token' headlights, many accidents occurred with vehicles running off the road. The government reacted promptly by painting a white line down the center of the roads, that would be visible even with the inadequate headlights mandated by the blackout.
Drivers were instructed to straddle the white line, to stay on the road.

It was only after the end of the war, and with the increasing traffic that brought, that laws were changed to 'drive on the left hand side of the road'

To his dying day, my grandfather (a professional truck driver) drove at no more than 30 mph "fast enough for anyone!", and straddling the white line. When more up-to-date motorists would honk at him for doing so , he honked right back and waved!
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  3:08 AM
Briefly, but I will respond in more detail subsequently, there is quite a lot going on behind the scenes at the moment which is pertinent to the comments about safety on the Thames Valley motorcylist clip, but basically those who have had the item (just personal message me with your email added) on Safety, View and Stability, The Keys to Positioning, will be in a better position (sic!) to understand what is happening and why that action of being on the extreme off-side of the road is quite safe if done properly. If you listen to the voice over, it is, in fact, qualified perfectly well. However, there are quite a few things with Roadcraft and the principles behind it which are eye-openers on your side of the pond. The setting up for an overtake is one example.

However, all in all, it is good to get the responses from people and to get a clearer undertanding of the reference points States-side, legal and otherwise.

The next video clip should be one by Nigel Bowers when he was an instructor at Stafford (Police) Driving School. This was an advanced run in North Wales. Am just having discussions with Nigel about it at the moment plus discussing other topics with him. There is some really interesting and useful stuff in this clip - plus some more off-side use of the road!
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sibemol
Male Junior Member
50 Posts


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

Shadow 2003 VT600

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  9:55 AM
quote:
The Keys to Positioning, will be in a better position (sic!) to understand what is happening and why that action of being on the extreme off-side of the road is quite safe if done properly


I'm still having problems understanding why being in an extreme off-side of the road is safer. What concerns me the most IS NOT the opposite traffic - which should also be a fair source of concern- but rather any traffic behind me that may be in the process of overtaking me.

I suppose the only way to avoid surprises in an extreme off-side position would be to REALLY KEEP a CLOSE WATCH of EVERYTHING that's going on behind me and on my side (my blind spot). I don't see the rider on the video doing any significant head-checks when overtaking or while he is moving in and out within his lane, and wouldn't this constant checking of traffic behind me preclude me from keeping track of everything ahead?

There is a post in the Accident reports forum where a motorcyclist was killed (I believe in the U.K.) as he attempted an overtake and the car in front moved to the right (within his lane) throwing the motorcyclist against oncoming traffic. The motorcyclist was clearly at fault of his own death. The driver was still within his side of the lane, and when he moved to the extreme side of his lane, he possibly did that to check for oncoming traffic. He obviously didn't do a head check to make sure that there was nobody there trying to share his lane, and I don't see the rider in the video too worried about that possibility either.

Indeed, it seems to me that the rider is more concerned with what is in front and not behind or to his side. Video: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...d-limit.html

So, if riding on an extreme side of the road is safer, I would like clarification: for whom is it safer? For everybody? Or just for someone who is in a real rush, like the rider in the video? Could you better define "IF DONE PROPERLY"?

Thanks for your comments.

Edited by - sibemol on 06/30/2009 10:11 AM
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  4:31 PM
Responding to sibemol's points about extreme off-side positoning.

There is a difference between whether being out there is safer, or whether it can be done safely. If the latter, then what are the pro's and con's. The pro's are obviously longer view through the bend and shallower line through the bend. Putting the two together that means faster progress; more pertinent obviously to police riding than civilian.

The average rider is not normally going to be practising this sort of technique. However, as previously mentioned there are, unfortunately, a lot of scary riders out there in the UK who don't know what they are doing, and it is probably thought that it's better for them to know how to make that sort of progress safely if that's what they are going to do, anyway.

Remember, if you will, as previously mentioned that this was apparently the first promo video for the UK Bikesafe programme (http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/), which has had a significant effect on reducing biking KSI (killed or seriously injured) cases in the land. What is seen on that video would certainly not have been allowed into the public domain if any of it did not contribute to safety - firstly, by that police force and secondly by its adoption by the nationwide Bikesafe programme.

Further, there is a USA Bikesafe programme http://www.motomark1.com/index.htm, being run by a Police Motorcycle Patrolman, Mark Brown, which I believe has been running for some seven years. It is based on the UK programme and, like the UK programme, has other police riders as instructors. As you will see this is based in North Carolina. Thanks to Brian for pointing me to that site.

Yes, you need all-round awareness, and if there was a potential threat of any sort from behind and/or to the side, the rider needs to be aware of this and adapt his or her riding accordingly. It's no excuse to say this idiot so and so did this or that, which caused me this or that problem. The rider should be accurately weighing up the whole situation and the likelihood of variations, and what they might be, as he goes along.

That is all part of remaining part of the solution and not becoming part of the problem. If there is an issue, simply don't do it.

I would say 'done properly' means primarily that you have checked it is safe to be out there, that you have checked that you have an increased view advantage - because if the road goes into a sharp right hand bend (US side) it may well be prudent not to be 'out there,' because if opposing traffic occurs, you will not have enough space and time to regain the nearside to preserve your safety. You have to judge when it is a suitable technique and when it is not.
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Night Train
Male Advanced Member
1667 Posts
[Mentor]


Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada

Harley-Davidson

99 Sportster XL 1200

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  1:58 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Nigel, thanks for the clarification as you have also addressed my concerns and as well the points raised in Gymnast's post. From review of the video, it does most certainly appear to be directed more in the lines of Police Riding as opposed to civilian riding.

I get the impression that this program is primarily aimed at reducing the number of motorcycle injury and deaths due to the high number of what I term "renegade riders". Those who take little or no training, ride like hell, and have no regard for themselves or others. It would appear that it has been determined that if these folks are not going to change their ways then they should at least be shown the safer route of riding in this manner.

If I have interpreted this properly, then it gives rise to 2 questions;

1. Given the mindset of the target audience, is it likely that they will adopt any change in this mindset to ride more safely? Have there been any statistics in this regard since the program was instituted?

2. With all the good intentions of the program, is there not a possibility that this instruction can be misinterpreted by riders who by their safety training and proper riding habits, would not normally consider such riding techniques but would be encouraged to attempt them?
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  2:30 AM
Good points, Night Train.
Getting people 'into the frame' is always a difficult one. I think, as I am sure you do, that the video is an excellent example of brisk (or even fast) riding which is completely smooth. It may raise questions in the minds of the target audience. The video might be shown at various shows where such motorcyclists would congregate and this extreme off-side bits would encourage them to ask questions and that would get them 'engaging', and so it would go on from there.

Your second point is a perennially intersting one. There is the argument that giving people the extra training can lead to over confidence and crashes as a result of that. I don't have the stats but that is why is our group traing (for example) there are twelve drives each of one hour with briefing and de-briefing taking the consumed time to around one and a half hourse. Associates are therefore built up in easy stages using the D12 Manual. By the time they get to D10 (Overtaking) if they have not aquired the right mind-set and general skill level then that 'module' is not undertaken. This is just an example of controlled devlopment. Whereas if you put the information (say on overtaking - Have you had the article?) straight into the public domain there is a strong possibility that some people will take the mechanics of how to do it without having the right mind-met and they are then setting themselves up for a crash. So the simple answer is both yes and no, but that may not be entirely helpful to you.

Edited by - Nigel A on 07/01/2009 2:37 AM
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  7:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Night Train

Nigel, thanks for the clarification as you have also addressed my concerns and as well the points raised in Gymnast's post. From review of the video, it does most certainly appear to be directed more in the lines of Police Riding as opposed to civilian riding.

I get the impression that this program is primarily aimed at reducing the number of motorcycle injury and deaths due to the high number of what I term "renegade riders". Those who take little or no training, ride like hell, and have no regard for themselves or others. It would appear that it has been determined that if these folks are not going to change their ways then they should at least be shown the safer route of riding in this manner.

If I have interpreted this properly, then it gives rise to 2 questions;

1. Given the mindset of the target audience, is it likely that they will adopt any change in this mindset to ride more safely? Have there been any statistics in this regard since the program was instituted?

2. With all the good intentions of the program, is there not a possibility that this instruction can be misinterpreted by riders who by their safety training and proper riding habits, would not normally consider such riding techniques but would be encouraged to attempt them?



I think you have made an error in assessing who the program is targeted at and then used that assessment to critique it. Roadcraft does not seem at all to be targeted at renegade riders. Most of them would be unwilling to read a single section of it as they "aleady know how to ride." If you want to test the theory, take the book to a local bar or Dairy Queen and try to sell it to the groups of riders that tend to congregate there. (I'm not responsible for any physical injuries that might occur if you do that.) If you have read Nigel's post on the early history of Roadcraft, it seems to actually have been targeted at slowing down responsible riders and having them behave in a way that is safer.

The program will only be undertaken by a person who wants to approach riding as a craft. The nature of the word is such that it implies perfection, extra effort as well as taking things slowly. It's a LOT of work which would probably take a couple of years of normal riding to progress through and which also must be refreshed frequently. A key concept expressed many times in the book is to "ride at a speed at which you can safely stop on your side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear." This is usually not of interest to the renegade rider. There are many instances where excessive speed is shown to increase risk in the book.

On your second objection, this could be true at any level of training, even BRC or parking lot practice. It's something to be aware of and it's the rider's responsibility to address it. It is addressed on page 25 of the book. I don't see a single technique in the book that would encourage a rider to ride with excessive confidence. In fact, I've experienced exactly the opposite. I've slowed down as I've realized how much I'm missing. There are zones where hazards are invisible no matter how confident one is. If anything, practicing the techniques have made me less confident.

I think Gymnast missed a part of the video. Initially, the rider remained behind a vehicle doing the speed limit of 45 mph. This was commented on quite clearly in the video. The pass was only undertaken when the speed limit increased to the "national limit" and the vehicle didn't. There is no indication that the overtaking methods are a way to progress through traffic in anything but a safe manner.

The techniques are not difficult if practiced. Most of them would be very difficult to misapply. How does one misapply "Look for traffic entering from a side road before overtaking?" How does one misapply "When you approach a hazard where your view is restricted, position your bike to get the best view that is consistent with safety?"

When reading anything on this board on riding techniques, it pays to go back to the root source of the techniques so they can be read in full context with all the associated techniques and warnings. In this case, it means buying "Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling."

I'm curious. Do you have the same objections to "Proficient Motorcycling?" Look at the section on cornering on page 94. Let's take this quote out of context: "For many of us, a brisk, but controlled ride down a favorite twisty road on a good handling bike is a most enjoyable way to spend an afternoon." The word "brisk" to me is usually a code for some speed faster than the speed limit. It also says on page 93 "But somewhere between the road racer and the plonker, there's room for spirited riding, and if we do it right, we don't have to jack up the risk to unacceptable levels. That's really what Proficient Motorcycling is all about.

Given the definition of "Plonker" I take offense.

Plonker is a slang term of British or Australian origin whose meaning has evolved over time. Partridge in the third edition of his A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English in 1949 recorded the term as "low" slang for penis, "since ca. 1917". The term remains in recent use with that meaning.

A fool; A man who sanctions sexual relationships between his girlfriend and his male friends.

We have a saying to "Eat the pomogranate and spit out the seeds." Those two statements in "Proficient Motorcycling" haven't caused me to throw out the book. There is still a lot of good information. The tendency of European riders to more freely cross the center line when they aren't passing don't cause me to toss out the other good information in the videos.
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Night Train
Male Advanced Member
1667 Posts
[Mentor]


Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada

Harley-Davidson

99 Sportster XL 1200

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  8:48 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Nigel, quite the contrary, your information is very helpful to me. The more I read, the more impressed I am with the Roadcraft program. The twelve supervised rides that you referred to, pretty much sold me on the fact that this is indeed a Motorcycle Training Program as opposed to the BRC course that we have in my area. Granted, the BRC is much better than nothing, but in my area it is designed to take those who have never sat astride a motorcycle to obtaining their Motorcycle permit over a 2 1/2 day period. We all have to start somewhere but again, in my area, there is no where to go from the starting point other than to research other venues in other areas and to explore information that abounds outside our geographical location, such as this site.

There is a limit to what a person can glean from closed course instruction, and the excellent reading materials that are available. It would appear to me that the Roadcraft program is a more balanced and widely encompassing venue where what is learned on the course and instructional materials, are taken out onto the public roads under supervision. The most impressive factor, in my mind, is that the group rides do not include riders who have been deemed not to have reached that level as yet. A far superior method than simply leaving a rider to their own devices and self determination of their ability. Left to our own devices, some good riders are reluctant to advance due to lack of confidence or a bench mark to measure by, and on the other side of the coin, some poorer riders may become overconfident and try to advance beyond their skill level with disastrous results.

When I pose questions, I don't mean them to sound critical. I usually input my interpretation of the information and my personal opinion based on that interpretation, so that the person answering the question will know where I am coming from with the particular inquiry.

I have been riding for over 42 years and accumulated close to a 1/2 million miles on motorcycles. I have learned a lot but believe there is a lot more that I could learn. If the Roadcraft program was available anywhere within 500 miles of me, I would jump at the opportunity to sign up for it.
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