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 Motorcycle Safety
 Roadcraft
 Inflexible catechism - all the answers, and deaf
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Night Train
Male Advanced Member
1667 Posts
[Mentor]


Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada

Harley-Davidson

99 Sportster XL 1200

Posted - 07/03/2009 :  6:35 PM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel A

Night Train wrote:
'I don't know to what extent the threat of Litigation and compounded Insurance rates exist in Great Britain, but I do think both these aspects are a serious detriment to any similar program successfully taking root in North America. Those two factors alone would make the cost of such a program far too prohibitive for most riders to afford.'

NA: In the UK all qualified obsersvers (for Insitute of Advanced Motorists) and tutors (RoSPA Advanced Drivers) are coverd by insurance, as are the particular advanced driving groups themselves under a blanket insurance provided by the respective organisations. All of those will be volunteers who give their time freely to help others become safer on the roads. There are also those who train others professionally (such as Nigel Bowers, aka advancedrider) and they will obviously have full insurance coverage for the work they do.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I didn't mean to imply that the RoadCraft Instructors were anything less than qualified or that they were operating without Insurance.

In Canada and the US, Insurance costs are extremely high in some areas and as well our population is Litigation orientated with Courts that are more than happy to hand out mult-million dollar awards. The point I was trying to make is that the cost of the Insurance that would be required for a program such as this would be expensive given the risk exposure that would be taken when training people on the public roads. It wouldn't take too many injury related incidents going to litigation to drive the Insurance Costs through the roof. In North America it is getting to the point that if you look at someone sideways, you are liable to be sued for causing them emotional distress and our courts show no reluctance in making these "emotionally distressed" claimants instant Millionaires.
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aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1739 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Peer Review: 1

Posted - 07/03/2009 :  8:56 PM
I suggest that we collectively take a breath, refocus our efforts in providing a strong clear voice for motorcycle safety, and find a way make this forum work for the benefit of all the members and visitors to this site.

I strongly believe the Roadcraft forum has value, not as the answer, but as one of many alternatives to US rider training. If we are to have any chance at all of improving the current state of affairs in US rider training, it is critical that we explore and understand, as best we can, what is available and working in other parts of the world. That is the reason this forum was created and the reason I volunteered to co-moderate it.

It is unfortunate that one of our most enthusiastic and committed-to-training members chose to get confrontational in front of the membership and visitors. He is an "ex-member" not because he had opposing views but because of how he expressed them. That said, I would hope that we can continue this forum with that same level of commitment and enthusiasm.

Let us be flexible in our thinking and open to new ideas, keeping in mind that everything we post will be read by some rider, somewhere, sometime, and it may well be taken (out of context) as gospel in regards to his or her riding safety. I am confident that we can find a way to move forward with this discussion.

My .02
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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 07/03/2009 :  9:40 PM
When someone I have every reason to respect (or someone I have no reason to disrespect) says something that, to me, is obviously and demonstrably untrue, I have found it useful to ask myself...

"Well, in what circumstances would that be true?"

The answer is often very enlightening...
It often changes my thinking, and usually explains a lot about the other persons thinking.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/04/2009 :  12:45 AM
Night Train wrote:
' think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I didn't mean to imply that the RoadCraft Instructors were anything less than qualified or that they were operating without Insurance.

In Canada and the US, Insurance costs are extremely high in some areas and as well our population is Litigation orientated with Courts that are more than happy to hand out mult-million dollar awards. The point I was trying to make is that the cost of the Insurance that would be required for a program such as this would be expensive given the risk exposure that would be taken when training people on the public roads. It wouldn't take too many injury related incidents going to litigation to drive the Insurance Costs through the roof. In North America it is getting to the point that if you look at someone sideways, you are liable to be sued for causing them emotional distress and our courts show no reluctance in making these "emotionally distressed" claimants instant Millionaires.'

NA: Thanks for the clarification and expansion of the point. I am with you now. I had previously mentioned in the forjm that I felt 'that side of the pond' was more litigeous - with the UK unfortunatey catching up at a slower pace - but was sort of shot down on the basis that the US side does not like to be told they are that way; a bit like the well known phrase over here that you might critisise a man's wife, but you can not critisise his driving.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/04/2009 :  12:52 AM
advancedbiker wrote:
'Roadcraft is only a guideline......

To be of any use Roadcraft has to be felxible and very practicable.'

NA. Chris Gilbert, the former Hendon Advanced Wing Instructor succintly commented that at driving school Roacraft is 'unpacked'. Following advancedbikers futher comment on the time spent on courses, that means that whlist RC is the basic guideline it is also the foundation, as we know, of what is done. The depth and proper understanding of RC is devloped during the police driving/riding courses, both in the classroom and out on the road, as per the clip of the North Wales run. (Must get on to Nigel Bowers to clarify a point before putting it on the forum).
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/04/2009 :  12:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aidanspa

I suggest that we collectively take a breath, refocus our efforts in providing a strong clear voice for motorcycle safety, and find a way make this forum work for the benefit of all the members and visitors to this site.

I strongly believe the Roadcraft forum has value, not as the answer, but as one of many alternatives to US rider training. If we are to have any chance at all of improving the current state of affairs in US rider training, it is critical that we explore and understand, as best we can, what is available and working in other parts of the world. That is the reason this forum was created and the reason I volunteered to co-moderate it.

It is unfortunate that one of our most enthusiastic and committed-to-training members chose to get confrontational in front of the membership and visitors. He is an "ex-member" not because he had opposing views but because of how he expressed them. That said, I would hope that we can continue this forum with that same level of commitment and enthusiasm.

Let us be flexible in our thinking and open to new ideas, keeping in mind that everything we post will be read by some rider, somewhere, sometime, and it may well be taken (out of context) as gospel in regards to his or her riding safety. I am confident that we can find a way to move forward with this discussion.

My .02



Yes, indeed. Let there be more of this level headed and less of the emotional and confrontational part - but that is also the way of making the world work, is it not?
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