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 'Advanced' or 'Performance' Training and Track Days
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/10/2009 :  8:54 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend                        Like
Over the past couple of years we have heard more and more about courses offering advanced or performance oriented training and there has been increasing interest shown by riders in 'Track Days' - the ability to learn how to handle your motorcycle near its (and your) limits away from our public roads on a relatively safe race track.

What some of you know is that I have received several criticisms over the past year for failing to endorse or encourage our members to participate in these courses along with claims that my advice seems stuck at the fundamentals level and aimed primarily at beginning riders. The claim has been made that by my failure to encourage these alternative riding courses I am deliberately discouraging rider skill growth and the learning of advanced techniques.

I confess! That is exactly my intention.

Let me be perfectly clear about that. I have very high regard for many of the advanced and performance oriented courses, the skills and techniques taught by them, the instructors, and even most of their students. What I oppose and find essentially intolerable from my safety oriented perspective is any suggestion that these courses prepare riders to become better in the sense that they will increase their odds of surviving riding motorcycles on our public roads based on what they learn during these classes.

To the contrary, learning how to handle your motorcycle at speeds of 100 mph or greater, how to lean off your motorcycle, or how to pick your 'best' line through a curve, to my mind, encourages unsafe behavior on our public roads, and illegal behavior at that.

Let's look at just those three teachings more closely. There is not a road in the United States where it is legal or safe to ride at speeds of 100 mph or greater. Only a motorcycle in top mechanical condition has even a reasonable chance of surviving the effort, assuming the rider is also in top physical condition and the roadway is free of all defects, the weather is clear, there is no traffic, and you KNOW with certainty that there are no blind curves (actually, curves of any kind) ahead of you. And a policeman who happens to observe or captures your speed with his radar equipment will not be in the least bit sympathetic that you learned how to handle your motorcycle at such speeds in a well regarded class run by people who hoped that you would become a safer rider as a result of their training.

Hanging off your motorcycle is a technique taught by some as a way to 'smoothly' and 'properly' handle curves, an advanced skill that will help you avoid dragging a peg in a fast curve - and it looks so cool. What that really translates into is how to increase your odds of making it through a curve at ILLEGAL SPEEDS. There is not a speed signed road in this country that requires you to lean your bike more than 20 degrees (closer to 15 degrees) when you are riding AT the posted speed. No body lean, whatever, is required to negotiate ANY speed marked curve in the country at legal speeds. You may look cool when your knee is reaching for the ground in a turn, but you will not look quite so well in a hospital bed, though your body will definitely be cool on the slab in the morgue. (Unless the sign specifying a speed for a turn contains the words 'speed limit' it is a 'speed ADVISORY' rather than a maximum speed.)

Picking the best line in a curve is a racing performance objective. Usually, the smoothest line through a curve is the one that requires the least steering correction though the turn because that line is the least destabilizing and requires the least lean angle. A safer line can often be chosen such as one known alternatively as one requiring a 'late apex' or 'late entry', but both of those safer lines require more aggressive steering inputs and steeping lean angles than the smoothest line. Selecting a line through multiple consecutive curves is certainly an advanced technique, but selecting it to maximize your speed through those curves is anything but safety oriented. And if truth be known, at any legal speeds on speed marked curves, you can choose virtually any path (line) through it without requiring aggressive steering inputs.

So, I don't encourage riders to get 'advanced' or 'performance' training and I don't encourage 'track days' because they lead some participants in such programs, particularly those who are dumb, stupid, naive, immature, foolish, and/or crazy (of whom the population of said participants is greater than zero), to overconfidence and risk taking on our public roads that can, in turn, KILL and injure riders. You learn to control your motorcycle, no matter what, and you learn to control yourself. That results in competence and increasing your odds out there. The rest is putting your toes over the edge - for fun or thrills, not survival.

Simple, huh?

Edited: to make it more clear.

gymnast
Moderator
4249 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 07/10/2009 :  10:04 AM
Track days are a great way for a rider to prepare their self to enter the world of competitive riding on race tracks and to test their skills against the skills of others under controlled conditions and in a legal manner. It, like many other motor sports hobbies can be very expensive and has very little carry over to safe and legal use of the public roadway system. The activity is a good outlet for those with an adventurous and competitive spirit yet the carry-over to street riding is mainly a matter of opinion and I am aware of no studies that indicate that persons who who participate in track days or contests where speed is a factor are less involved in crashes on the public roads. My observations locally and when living in other parts of the country (Southern California, and the Midwest) was that a significant proportion of the riders who participated in track day events also liked to "run the canyons" often with tragic results. In addition to the track day participants, there seemed to be a number of riders in the local "go fast groups" that associated with the more experienced riders and attempted to emulate their abilities on the public roads, often with less than satisfactory results.

If a person wants to learn racing techniques or be a racer, there are other specialized websites that may provide them with the information they need to guide them into the world of high speed competitive riding, be it hare scrambles enduros, flat track or road racing. The track days, competition arenas and competitive side of motorcycling are a legitimate entertainment and sports outlet that may be just what some people need to satisfy their sense of adventure. There is a time and place for everything, however everything is not appropriate at the same time and at the same place.

There is still a steel shoe hanging up in my garage and somewhere in a box out there are some old jerseys with a number on them. I am an old guy now and it has been almost thirty years since I have sat on the line waiting for the flag to start the race. All the years of riding competition along with meeting a variety of people not likely to be otherwise encountered was a wonderful adventure, yet is has virtually nothing to do with everyday demands of riding in traffic or taking a ride up into the mountains, my wife on back, and just enjoying the day by going for a long ride.

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DDfromMN
Male Standard Member
196 Posts


St. Paul, Minnesota
USA

Yamaha

FJR 1300, Hon GL1200

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  4:50 PM
I believe track days and performance riding schools are just another form of motorcycle riding as a recreational activity. Much like sports car owners who participate in track days, some people like to ride their sport bikes at a higher level and wisely choose to do it in a safe environment. Nothing wrong with that. I also believe that most people who do this can seperate it from street riding, and use that mass of tissue between their ears to then ride in a responsible and safe manner on public streets.
Jim,
Are there statistics that support your claim that track days lead to "overconfidence and risk taking on our public roads that, in turn, KILLS and injures riders?"
I think you should give people a bit more credit for intelligence than you do. The people that I know who participate in track days are some of the most responsible and safe riders that I've ridden with in my 35 years of riding.
I'm not suggesting that you should endorse track days etc.., but to say it isn't usefull and leads to crashes and deaths on the street just doesn't seem fair.
Just my 2 cents.

DD
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  7:11 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Of course there is a place for such training and experience. I simply do not recommend or endorse them.

As to your quote and concern ... It is a dead certainty that overconfidence and risk taking on public roads kills and injures motorcyclists. I feel no duty to produce documented proof of that assertion. On the other hand, I modified that statement ever so slightly to lessen your concern for my credibility so that it now says:

"... overconfidence and risk taking on our public roads that can, in turn, KILL and injure riders"
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DDfromMN
Male Standard Member
196 Posts


St. Paul, Minnesota
USA

Yamaha

FJR 1300, Hon GL1200

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  7:20 PM
James,
I don't disagree that overconfidence and risk taking can kill or injure motorcyclists. I do however disagree that participation is such activities as track days automatically leads to overconfidence and risk taking.
There are plenty of intelligent responsible and mature riders out there that would also beg to differ.

DD
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  7:29 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Again, I do not disagree with you that, for some, such behavior is kept on the race track. On the other hand, for some, it is not. So, once again I edited my post to ratchet down my assertion of negative consequences to the level of a mere footnote.

Thank you.

Edit: Because I'm not known for being mealy mouthed or unwilling to say what I mean, I again changed the wording you have taken issue with so that it now more accurately states my case as follows:

quote:
So, I don't encourage riders to get 'advanced' or 'performance' training and I don't encourage 'track days' because they lead some participants in such programs, particularly those who are dumb, stupid, naive, immature, foolish, and/or crazy (of whom the population of said participants is greater than zero), to overconfidence and risk taking on our public roads that can, in turn, KILL and injure riders.
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SkootchNC
Male Advanced Member
1058 Posts
[Mentor]


raleigh, north carolina
USA

Harley-Davidson

road glide

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  8:38 PM
In another thread
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/t...PIC_ID=10440
A member spoke of just such a situation. A novice rider became "boy racer" and used his new found "track day skills" on the public roads.

Dedicated racers (sports cars, sports bikes) use their skills on the TRACK, and avoid speed demonstrations on public roads.
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DDfromMN
Male Standard Member
196 Posts


St. Paul, Minnesota
USA

Yamaha

FJR 1300, Hon GL1200

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  9:41 PM
Well, apparently I have really drawn your ire, which was not my intention at all. I was disagreeing with what I felt was a blanket statement not necessarily based in fact, but rather opinion. Your opinion versus mine. I thought we could have a discussion based on our disagreement. I was wrong. My mistake.
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  10:02 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
How curious. There does not seem to be any disagreement between our positions. You felt my statement was too broad, though you challenged it as if you thought it was untruthful. Nevertheless, I changed the statement to comply with your wishes and sensitivities.

Now you seem dissatisfied because there was inadequate discussion? Do you mean that there was inadequate appreciation of your eagle eye? Was 'Thank you' insufficient, or did you think that was insincere? Did you expect an 'Atta boy!' or a 'You da man!' comment (discussion) as well? Perhaps your sensitivities are greater than I assumed. Forgive me.

Discuss it all you want.
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gymnast
Moderator
4249 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 07/11/2009 :  10:47 PM
DDfromMN. Would you recommend track day training for all street riders and if so, why? You stated that "track days are just another form of motorcycle riding as a recreational activity". I agree that for some people, a track day is an opportunity for a "recreational activity" and while many if not most people are mature enough to confine their high speed riding to track days, many are not.

When looking at the local Boise Riders website, I see support for safe and sane riding, a meeting place for local "go fast riders" times for local stunt riders to gather and practice at covert locations, invites to join in for track days, Bar B Ques, meet up times and places for "brisk canyon rides" and more sedate rides and runs. I find the local website typical of dozens of other websites where the pecking order tends to be based on the ability to maintain a "brisk pace" regardless of posted or recommended speeds. The Boise Riders website provides evidence that some of the members advise proper gear and caution as well as evidence that some members are into riding as a risk taking behavior and have a high probability of crashing, sooner than later. Many of the posters seem to have their heads together, others do not.

Track days are a recreational outlet for some, however I see virtually no risk reduction or crash reduction or safety benefit in track days when it comes to the average street rider. On the other hand, I do see benefits in off road riding under conditions of reduced traction and more limited speeds, particularly when using the same bike one rides on the street.

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bridwell52
Male Senior Member
377 Posts


Pensacola, FL
USA

BMW

KGT

Posted - 07/12/2009 :  4:10 PM
I have tried but cannot remember which one of the "big dogs" in racing answered a question about what he rides on the street.
His reply was, "I do not ride on the street, it is too dangerous."
Sorry, Ill try to find that interview, but I think it was Rossi.

David
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Niebor
Ex-Member

Posted - 07/12/2009 :  4:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
On the other hand, I do see benefits in off road riding under conditions of reduced traction and more limited speeds, particularly when using the same bike one rides on the street.



Nailed it! The same goes for lean, and counter-lean.
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Cash Anthony
Female Administrator
1465 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, Texas
USA

Honda

Magna 750

Posted - 07/12/2009 :  6:01 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
One skill that seems to come up in most performance riding classes is how to use body position to marginally adjust the amount of lean the bike has in a turn. The main reason a rider would do this (outside of a racing environment) is when she's dragging a peg.

Hearing that peg scrape usually tells you you're leaned too far over because you came into a turn "hot." Anyone can do this at some point in your riding life, without coming close to desiring to use racing techniques. It's a mistake, but it's survivable.

If you remember that this is the time to lean/shift your body over into the turn, in order to give the bike more clearance (which is counter-intuitive to many), this could be one time that you want to know something that comes out of an advanced rider clinic.

Short of learning it in a situation like that (i.e., "track days"), does anyone have a better idea of where a rider would ever experience this, except in a bad situation? (Or an alarming one, at least)

This peg-scraping can happen, by the way, in conditions that are deceiving. I remember a certain Gold Wing rider scraping a peg at rather slow speed on an extreme hairpin, rising turn in Arkansas, going up the Pig Trail.

It was almost as hairy as riding up a wet spiral ramp.


Cash
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/12/2009 :  6:38 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Short of learning it in a situation like that (i.e., "track days"), does anyone have a better idea of where a rider would ever experience this, except in a bad situation? (Or an alarming one, at least)
Well, let's see. You know what to do if you drag a peg and you've never attended an advanced or performance training class or participated in a track day event. Could it be that you learned it here?

You do not have to drag a peg to know why it happens and what to do about it. But if that's what you want to do, next time we're doing some PLP just drag a peg with a tight turn - you'll know it's about to happen so it won't be a surprise.
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dhalen32
Male Moderator
840 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

BMW

BMW R1200RT

Peer Review: 1

Posted - 07/15/2009 :  7:27 AM
Jim:
Having recently participated in Lee Parks' Total Control course and both the ARC-ST and MSRC cousin offered by MSF I disagree somewhat with the position you have taken.

After particpating as a student in Parks' course I wrote a brief review on your forum here. I was disappointed with my experience with this course in that its focus was totally about cornering and no discussion or practical exercises focused upon other aspects of street riding such as braking or swerving to avoid crashes. As a Mechanical Engineer/Technical type I found the segment on suspension tuning and setting up a bike properly to be the most valuable take away. I did not hear once that we were to take curves at 100 mph + or even hang off of the bike although I can see how it could be implied that these were unspoken goals of the participants and Instructors alike.

I don't think you could be more wrong about either the ARC-ST or MSRC courses recently released by the MSF. These two classes actively discourage whole body shift/hanging off as a cornering technique for the street. The courses specifically talk about risk offset, risk homeostasis and that the goal of improving one's skills is to increase safety margin; not cornering speed, lean angle, wheelies, stoppies, etc.

Both MSF courses do, however, teach an upper body shift of forward and in towards the inside of the turn the rider is making. The goal being to maximize cornering clearance front suspension loading. They also specifically discuss cornering lines different from outside-inside-outside as preached in both the BRC and ERC. These alternate paths of travel are explored in order to provide riders improved sight lines as well as options for bike placement to deal with surprises such as decreasing radius corners, road hazards, etc. We all know that this can be construed as encouraging higher speeds but I just do not see it encouraged or implied anywhere in either curricula.

Specifically, two exercises focus on maximum effort stops and one of these includes a stop and evade component to simulate how to deal with a following driver unable to stop that might crash into a stopped rider. Another exercise is essentially a demonstration on the total stopping distance effect of a 1 second perception/reaction delay in order to illustrate the importance of exercising good visual scanning skills on the street.

One exercise affords practice for the students to experience the speed/suspension loading differences between simply swerving around wide obstacles (8' and 10') and braking and then swerving around the same obstacles. Another exercise provides practice in cornering with and without a swerve around a mid-corner obstacle as well as braking while cornering.

Most people's favorite seems to be the decreasing radius turn exercise where a student starts cornering at 25 - 30 mph the entire width of the range and then through a series of gates corners 2/3 of the range width and concludes at 1/2 of the range width in a spiral path of travel. Speed and lean angle adjustments are essential to do this smoothly and without peg grinding. Body position adjustments and even brake application are encouraged/allowed.

The final exercise has all 12 students out on the range on two concentric oval pathways. They are required to change from the inner oval to the outer oval on alternating laps using signals, head checks, etc and they are required to maintain a 4 - 6 second gap between themselves and the rider they are trailing. The goal of the exercise is to develop the social skills of operating in dense traffic; safely and rage-free.

Not one of these range exercises are done at speeds exceeding 30 mph nor are student coached to hang off, increase lean angle, perform stoppies or wheelies. While I understand your concern of reinforcing high speed, risk taking behavior in more advanced or performance oriented courses I do not really believe you will find this in either MSF course offering. At least in my experience/opinion.

I would actually encourage you and anyone else reading this to seek out an ARC-ST or MSRC class near you and give it a try before judging it's value or intent. I personally trained two RiderCoaches from Texas in an MSRC certification course last month and believe you will satrt seeing it offered as the ARC-ST soon.
Dave
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17255 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/15/2009 :  8:07 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Dave,

Thank you for you perspectives on the matter. They are valuable and illustrative for all.

I have not pointed out a particular advanced or performance oriented class to be critical of, certainly did not even mention the MSF classes. My concern is that the parts of these classes that are performance oriented are easily misunderstood to be skills needed in order to break speed laws in curves, not the parts of the curriculum that are mislabeled as being advanced (such as the social skills exercise you mentioned) and which should, instead, be a part of BASIC rider training. You will recall, I'm sure, that the MRC:RSS had a similar exercise in it (and I never heard of an accident during that exercise, but there may have been some).

Total Control, which I did observe first hand, spent a lot of time on hanging off technique. There is no other reason for such training than to 'look like a racer' or to illegally carve your way at excessive speeds through curves on the road.

There are plenty of level headed and mature riders, like you, who could benefit from advanced training and not abuse or misunderstand the techniques they are taught - I have no doubt. Those people don't need me or anyone else cautioning them about safety. It's the larger, in my opinion, set of immature riders who become threats to me and themselves after attending these classes who I try to influence here. These are the same people who can't hear such advice or discount it entirely because it doesn't relate to them and so it's possible that my efforts are of no consequence anyway. But that doesn't stop me from voicing my opinions here because they might, just might, save a life from time to time.

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dhalen32
Male Moderator
840 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

BMW

BMW R1200RT

Posted - 07/15/2009 :  12:32 PM
Jim:
And you should not stop voicing your opinion; neither of us should. I just wanted to clarify that not all advanced riding courses are glorifying speed nor teaching techniques which clearly belong on a race track.

As someone who believes that knowledge is power I want to encourage the audience on your forum to explore what is out there for training beyond the basics. I share your opinion that hanging off is far too extreme for street riding and courses that encourage the technique along with excessive speed and other extreme behaviors have no place on a safety forum. My experience with Total Control was more benign that yours so I imagine that knee dragging as acceptable behavior may be purely individual Instructor driven.

In any case, if you have an opportunity, I think you might find an ARC-ST course to be an enjoyable and enlightening experience on the Gold Wing.
Dave
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Beary
Male Standard Member
181 Posts


Edmond, Oklahoma
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King Classic

Posted - 07/15/2009 :  3:08 PM
This is an interesting discussion because I am looking for an advance course locally that would give me more experience in higher speed turns. One skill I want to learn is the lean into turn to stop scraping. I personally do not see that as an easy skill to learn because by the time I scrape a peg, its too late to react. And honestly that is not something I want to try and practice without instruction from a pro.

During my flying days, we were taught that fastest way to success was confidence in skills. While it is not required, we asked our students to take some aerobatic training. If a pilot did those same maneuvers in a non-aerobatic plane, they could certainly kill themselves. But in reality, the training gave the students more confidence in some of the non-aerobatic maneuvers of everyday flying. Aerobatic training just simply made average pilots (or below average) better pilots. I just want to be a better rider.

I also believe a good rider can never learn enough skills to make them safer riders on the road. While a rider can certainly go through the rest of their riding days not using the clutch to hold a bike on a steep hill while stopped, I still encourage riders to practice that procedure because it gives them a better feel for the bike and one more tool in a tool bag of skills during everyday riding.

Of course there will be some individuals who use these higher skills inappropriately (hot roding), but I believe those are the same individuals who would likely push outside the envelope even without the training. I certainly saw that in pilots. But maybe the training will save a few of those lives as well. The number one cause of motorcycle rider deaths are single vehicle accidents and the majority of those accidents occur on curves. I've been kind of tracking that here in Oklahoma and most of these riders are not riding sport bikes.

Also, I have found through my own personal poll that typically riders who went through MSF course generally wear most of the protective riding gear taught in the course. I'm finding the safety gear required for these courses we are talking about are even stricter and I'm sure that would spill over into normal everyday riding.

While I do understand the downside, I think the benefits of advanced training far outweigh the negatives.

Good discussion.

Beary
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DDfromMN
Male Standard Member
196 Posts


St. Paul, Minnesota
USA

Yamaha

FJR 1300, Hon GL1200

Posted - 07/16/2009 :  8:01 AM
I guess I took the wrong approach here in attempting to spur the discussion earlier, that is now occuring.
My apologies.
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dhalen32
Male Moderator
840 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

BMW

BMW R1200RT

Posted - 07/16/2009 :  10:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DDfromMN

I guess I took the wrong approach here in attempting to spur the discussion earlier, that is now occuring.
My apologies.



DD:
No need to apologize. Jim's concerns are absollutely valid with squids who take advanced training for the sole purpose of going faster on the street. Stick with us. Learning how, when and what to say on the internet is more of an art than doing it person where you have the benefit of reading a person's body language, facial expression, tone of voice, etc. There is a lot of experience, brain power and skill on this forum from which to learn.

Jim and I are both old curmudgeons who will jump you if you do not speak from fact and experience. We also do not always agree with each other. Make sure that if you are voicing opinion, qualify it as such and you will be fine.
Dave
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Birdman
Ex-Member

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  6:05 PM
Hey guys, I can't speak for other courses, but I can give some insight into Total Control.

Level 1 does not address hard braking or swerving as the majority of fatalities in single rider crashes are corners.

That being said Level 2 offers hard braking and braking in a decreasing radius.

No training should be your only training and all riders should continue to train, as riding is a skill like any other physical activity that MUST be reset with proper training and professional feedback.

If you look at the highest level of athletes you'll find this philosophy practiced....weekly if not daily.

Education sets understanding, training aids proper muscle memory and in a panic you'll always resort to training. If you don't get monitored training your muscle will go with what they have experienced recently (usually street riding) and that rarely is enough to get you out of a bad situation.

Ultimately we all hope that people use superior judgement to not need superior skill, but stats and reality don't support that reality model.
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