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 Motorcycle Accident Reports - WITH COMMENTS
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Safe N Smiling
Male Junior Member
33 Posts


On a Bike Somewhere, Here and There
USA

(Unknown - Other)

Several Bikes

Posted - 03/16/2017 :  12:23 PM                       Like


How fast would the motorcycle be going to do so much damage to an SUV?

Here is an article on the collision.
http://www.pe.com/articles/collisio...le-fire.html

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17282 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 03/16/2017 :  1:05 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Such a tragedy! Three lives lost and two children left without parents saddens me deeply.

I left a comment on the article itself because I'd like the public (and REPORTERS) to start thinking realistically. To call it an accident is hugely biasing to all who read the story. Defense attorneys love it! Having to defend a person for being involved in an 'accident' starts with a jury predisposed to think there was no fault involved. NUTS!

Both drivers planned and behaved deliberately. Neither intended to be involved in a collision or to be or cause a death situation. But, apparently, both drivers acted stupidly if what the story reports is accurate. The motorcyclist was travelling (according to the article) at a high rate of speed - implying MUCH FASTER than the speed limit. The SUV driver turned left across the path of travel of oncoming traffic.

Only the collision was unintended, and it was the collision that killed (not an 'accident').

This will end up in a civil trial where both sides will attempt to show the jury that the other side's driver was MORE NEGLIGENT than their own side's driver. In other words, this will be a war of words and evidence designed to affect a financial outcome - but no jury is ever asked (or ever will be) if two children should be left without parents.
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Safe N Smiling
Male Junior Member
33 Posts


On a Bike Somewhere, Here and There
USA

(Unknown - Other)

Several Bikes

Posted - 03/16/2017 :  3:10 PM
Yes James. A terrible tragedy. The motorcyclist was also a father of two, so 4 children are terribly effected by this accident.

What your take on the speed from your experience
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17282 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 03/16/2017 :  3:16 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
I have no idea as to the speed. An accident reconstructionist could use crush data to approximate it, but I could not.
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DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 03/16/2017 :  7:54 PM
I've been following this. Horrific tragedy. I can't even imagine the terror experienced by the two children.

More on the family in this article from the Press Enterprise.

The crash occurred in this intersection (Google maps link; the cross street, Gem Lane, is misidentified by Google). The motorcycle was eastbound, the SUV westbound turning left. But in the photo, the wreckage is about 70ft east of the intersection. So the collision not only crushed the vehicle, it also moved it that distance. The posted speed limit on Alessandro is 55mph.
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scottrnelson
Advanced Member
6886 Posts
[Mentor]


Pleasanton, CA
USA

KTM

990 Adv, XR650L

Posted - 03/17/2017 :  8:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Both drivers planned and behaved deliberately. Neither intended to be involved in a collision or to be or cause a death situation. But, apparently, both drivers acted stupidly if what the story reports is accurate.
I disagree just a little about the driver of the SUV acting stupidly.

If the motorcycle was going significantly faster than the speed limit, say double that speed, I don't think a reasonable driver should be expected to spot them as a threat if they're twice as far away as a normal threat would be when starting the turn.

That might not be worded optimally. What I'm trying to say is that when I'm about to make a left turn, I check that there is nobody coming a reasonable distance down the road and assume that I can get safely across before somebody comes. A motorcycle at speed would be especially hard to spot as a threat, since there is usually just one headlight and speed coming toward you is much harder to judge.

I have to regularly remind myself when I'm riding anywhere that left turns happen, that I'm not going to be seen in time if I'm going much over the speed limit. Many years ago I remember a case near here where I was obviously too fast for conditions and a car that was going to pull out onto the road saw me in time and stopped. I probably could have stopped in time if they had pulled out. I decided to avoid that particular situation in the future.
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17282 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 03/17/2017 :  8:54 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Good point, but the fact remains that just because it's hard to do does not absolve the SUV driver from properly assessing the threat. Making an assumption that a potentially threatening vehicle is traveling at or below the speed limit is an assumption that could kill.

A similar 'excuse' is often heard relative to motorcycle-involved collisions: I didn't see him. That is invariably followed with the same facts you just used about them being smaller, etc. Even if the motorcycle that was involved was in plain sight (no visual obstructions), that excuse may well be TRUE. But if it could be seen, then it should be.

Helmets are the best way to save face.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 03/17/2017 :  1:54 PM
A terrible incident, with an awful outcome. Sadly, like most collisions, it was avoidable. We all (well, us here) appreciate that even when riding within posted limits there's no guarantee that a driver won't turn across your path.

There are so many reasons why drivers don't acknowledge our presence, but many riders don't help their case. Unsuitable speed, 'constant bearing' line approach, not covering the brakes etc.

As far as the outcome, an accident investigator I know once said something like "a carefully-aimed 125 can overturn a car".

And from the driver's side of the crash? Well, in the UK there is a perception that SUV drivers can have a 'might is right' attitude to others. Or perhaps he was distracted - young child in the car, etc. Total speculation, of course - the same as any thoughts we have about riding style too.





Motorcyclists? speed and ?looked-but-failed-to-see? accidents
Nicolas Clabaux, Thierry Brenac, Christophe Perrin, Jo?l Magnin, Bastien Canu,
Pierre Van Elslande
IFSTTAR, LMA, F-13300 Salon de Provence, France
Abstract: Previous research on motorcycle crashes has shown the frequency and severity of
accidents in which a non-priority road user failed to give way to an approaching motorcyclist without
seeing him/her, even though the road user had looked in the approaching motorcycle?s direction and
the motorcycle was visible. These accidents are usually called ?looked-but-failed-to-see? (LBFS)
accidents. This article deals with the effects that the motorcyclist?s speed has in these accidents. It is
based on the in-depth study and precise kinematic reconstruction of 44 accident cases involving a
motorcyclist and another road user, all occurring in intersections. The results show that, in urban
environments, the initial speeds of motorcyclists involved in ?looked-but-failed-to-see? accidents are
significantly higher than in other accidents at intersections. In rural environments, the difference in
speed between LBFS accidents and other accidents is not significant, but further investigations would
be necessary to draw any conclusions. These results suggest that speed management, through road
design or by other means, could contribute to preventing ?looked-but-failedto-see? motorcycle
accidents, at least in urban environments.


https://youtu.be/PDKpAfwjWko
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 03/18/2017 :  6:13 AM
There is also the problem of difficulty in the car driver's ability to estimate the speed of the motorcycle. The ability to gauge speed is aided if the motorcycle is equipped with the triangle of light system. That is usually accomplished by mounting two lights in addition to the headlights with the additional lights mounted low and on either side of the bike.

Railroad locomotives in the USA have gone to such a three light arrangement to lower the incidence of train/car collisions. The old single headlight, even with the added moving Mars light to get attention, made it difficult for the driver to judge distance and speed.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 03/18/2017 :  1:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

There is also the problem of difficulty in the car driver's ability to estimate the speed of the motorcycle. The ability to gauge speed is aided if the motorcycle is equipped with the triangle of light system. That is usually accomplished by mounting two lights in addition to the headlights with the additional lights mounted low and on either side of the bike.



The only research I know on this was:
'Successful' - video simulation
'Unproven' - on-road trials

Do youkknow of anything conclusive?
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 03/18/2017 :  4:00 PM
I don't have any studies on motorcycle lighting. I know it's easier for me to judge distance and speed with a triangle of light. There have been studies involving railroad lighting.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  4:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

I don't have any studies on motorcycle lighting. I know it's easier for me to judge distance and speed with a triangle of light. There have been studies involving railroad lighting.



I'd be grateful if you could dig them out.

Of course, you (not you personally) perhaps have to be a 'special' person to not want to give the train (big, heavy, constant speed, no chance of swerving etc) the benefit of doubt when deciding whether to cross the track . . .
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  7:31 AM
I would have to Google any reports on locomotive lighting tests as I don't have any bookmarked or memorized, I just remember reading some in the 1990s. Respectfully, anyone who is really interested could do that as well as I could.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  7:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

Respectfully, anyone who is really interested could do that as well as I could.



No problem, I will. Apologies for the assumption, from your comment "I don't have . . . " that you 'had'.

FYI, I'll post some links tomorrow to motorcycle-related research.
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  9:39 AM
Great. Thanks. My time and interest priorities are elsewhere for a while.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  10:40 AM
Ithought this rang a (loco?) bell . . .

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/t...PIC_ID=15045
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 03/19/2017 :  10:56 AM
I only have a vague memory of that thread. I think the hard drive between my ears is full.
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