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gymnast
Moderator
4263 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 10/03/2015 :  12:04 PM                       Like
Would this motivate you to get initial and/or additional rider training?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ply...8fuxWKhMpYh5

DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 10/04/2015 :  9:39 AM
Use this link to start with the longer, 7-minute video of the three:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3H...8fuxWKhMpYh5

It resonates with me because I agree with the messages: We need training to learn the required skills; we need repeated training to maintain and improve those skills; and skills don't just help keep us safe, they make motorcycling more fun.

In addition, the point the instructor makes about most fatal crashes NOT being caused by other motorists, though contrary to widespread belief among riders, is one that motorcyclists need to hear. False beliefs about drivers run deep in riding culture: They're dangerously inept. They don't care. They're out to get us. The companion belief--Most of us, OTOH, are exquisitely skilled--is also false. A culture that incorrectly attributes the group's woes to others (who outnumber us by about 30-to-1 in the US) will have nothing to contribute towards solving those problems. That's more of an aside, though; the purpose of the video is to promote training, not to change the culture.

The appearance of unlimited hydroplane racer Chip Hanauer is a plus, especially in Washington where unlimiteds are very popular. No spoilers, but I thought some of the others that appeared weren't so effective.
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commonground
Male Standard Member
155 Posts


Windsor, PA
USA

Yamaha

V Star 1300

Posted - 10/04/2015 :  10:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DataDan
In addition, the point the instructor makes about most fatal crashes NOT being caused by other motorists, though contrary to widespread belief among riders, is one that motorcyclists need to hear. False beliefs about drivers run deep in riding culture: They're dangerously inept. They don't care. They're out to get us. The companion belief--Most of us, OTOH, are exquisitely skilled--is also false. A culture that incorrectly attributes the group's woes to others (who outnumber us by about 30-to-1 in the US) will have nothing to contribute towards solving those problems. That's more of an aside, though; the purpose of the video is to promote training, not to change the culture.




Well said. I read lots of accounts of how the incident happened from motorcycle riders and often hear that it was the other guy's fault. Usually I'm going through the what ifs in my mind as I listen or read the accounts. What if you had been going slower, what if you had been more vigilant, what if you had better training, what if you were "Riding Your Ride"?
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OB
Male Advanced Member
528 Posts


Houston, TX
USA

Buell

1125CR and others

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 10/05/2015 :  2:27 PM
"In addition, the point the instructor makes about most fatal crashes NOT being caused by other motorists, though contrary to widespread belief among riders, is one that motorcyclists need to hear."

DataDan,

I have a-lot of respect for your posts since you normally don't say much unless you can back it with some authoritative information or facts. So, I noticed that you made the above statement. I do believe that the motorcyclist is responsible for a large percentage of fatal crashes, notably, not being able to maintain control in the corners. A large percentage of fatal motorcycle accidents are also attributed to non-motorcyclists violating the motorcycles right of way at intersections. What does your magic bag of statistics have to say about fatal motorcycle accidents. What percentage is given to the motorcyclist verses other drivers? Thanks in advance for your response.
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DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 10/05/2015 :  9:11 PM
quote:
I have a-lot of respect for your posts since you normally don't say much unless you can back it with some authoritative information or facts. So, I noticed that you made the above statement. I do believe that the motorcyclist is responsible for a large percentage of fatal crashes, notably, not being able to maintain control in the corners. A large percentage of fatal motorcycle accidents are also attributed to non-motorcyclists violating the motorcycles right of way at intersections. What does your magic bag of statistics have to say about fatal motorcycle accidents. What percentage is given to the motorcyclist verses other drivers? Thanks in advance for your response.

Good question. The crashes I have looked at in the most detail are in the San Francisco Bay Area. There, over 10 years 2004-2013, 31% of the 700 fatal crashes have occurred when the rider ran wide in a curve and hit either a fixed object or an oncoming vehicle. In 21% the motorcycle collided with a vehicle crossing its path (usually a left-turner). Most of those were the driver's fault, but one-third were caused by a motorcyclist who ran a light or contributed with excessive speed. The next most common crash scenarios in that dataset are the motorcyclist losing control on a straight (19%) and the motorcyclist rear-ending another vehicle (8%). In all, riders caused 72% of the fatal crashes in the region.

More to the point of this thread, I took a look at crashes in the state of Washington 2010-2013 using new crash description codes NHTSA employs (this is a process I'm still developing, so it lacks some detail). In 42% of the 302 fatal motorcycle crashes in the state during that time, the motorcycle departed the road to one side or the other (the most common description in that category is "departed road, right side, drove off road" as opposed to skidding off road). Of the departure crashes, 80% occurred while the rider was negotiating a curve and 10% while going straight.

Similarly to the SF Bay, in 20% of the fatal crashes, the motorcycle collided with a crossing vehicle, mostly oncoming left-turners but also a significant number of "intersecting straight paths". In about one-third of the crossing vehicle crashes, motorcycle speed is cited as a contributing factor, and in several more, rider failure to obey a sign or signal was cited. However, I haven't isolated driver contribution to those crashes, so in some it could have been a combination of errors.

The next most common kind of fatal motorcycle crash in Washington 2010-13 was reported as "other" (11%). I suspect some of these are crashes under braking or other loss of control crashes, but I haven't figured out how to easily determine pre-crash actions. Then came head-ons (8%), which were 2:1 driver-caused.

For now, I would estimate that about 70% of fatal motorcycle crashes in Washington are caused by the rider, most often in single-vehicle crashes where the motorcycle runs off the road, usually in a curve. So the statement in the video is generally confirmed by data reported in the US DOT fatal crash database.

I can't answer your question for the US because I haven't gone deep enough into the details. Hope this is an adequate response.
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OB
Male Advanced Member
528 Posts


Houston, TX
USA

Buell

1125CR and others

Posted - 10/06/2015 :  4:35 AM
DataDan,

Thanks for a great response! It certainly answered my question, thank you.
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 10/06/2015 :  5:40 AM
A couple of articles from the UK perspective.

First, some accident stats I gathered from various publications. As their categories vary slightly, they're not directly comparable, but give you a flavour.


Sources:

University of Wales Insitute of Science and Technology
Evaluation of Motorcycle Training, 1980

Used figures from Gwent motorcycle crashes in 1980, their figures are claimed to correspond accurately with those from Bucks, Cheshire, and Hereford & Worcs.

The study compared types of crashes with training available at the time, and the content of training manuals.

Motorcycle Loss of Control
inc. Bends / braking / alcohol -- - - - 23%
Right of Way Violation - - - - - - - - 13%
Hit stationary object - - - - - - - - - 10%


RoSPA 'Motorcycle Accidents in Norfolk', 1988

Compared crash involvement of 'trained' and 'untrained' riders. Unfortunately flawed in a number of ways, not the least that 'trained' was anyone who took training in the county in a three-year period, everyone else was 'untrained'.

Split acc.s in to 'Urban' "2/3" & 'Rural' "1/3"

Urban crashes
Junctions - - - - - - 29% (of urban crashes)

Rural crashes
Bends - - - - - - - - - 16% (of rural)
Head on - - - - - - - - 12%
Overtaking at junc. - - 9%


DpT In Depth Study of Motorcycle Accidents, 2004
Road safety report no. 54, ISSN 1468-9138

Used Midlands police database of 1790 crashes.

Right of Way Violation - - - 38%
Overtaking - - - - - - - - - 14.5%
Bends - - - - - - - - - - - - 12.5%
Rear-end - - - - - - - - - - - 11.4%


Transport for London, Street Management
"PTW User Casualties in Greater London", 2004

'Serious' injury
Veh. turn r. across P2W - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 15%


Next post is from a UK magazine
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commonground
Male Standard Member
155 Posts


Windsor, PA
USA

Yamaha

V Star 1300

Posted - 10/06/2015 :  5:40 AM
Great reports. Thanks from all of us. I visit several other forums and safety is not a priority on any of them. Therefore, the information and knowledge imparted by reports such as these are never received by the majority of the riders. I'm glad that I found this forum and thank the contributors.

Edited by - commonground on 10/06/2015 5:47 AM
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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 10/06/2015 :  5:41 AM
From Bike magazine, October 06

Are car drivers the problem?

Dopey motorists killing innocent bikers is a nice idea. Trouble is, it's a myth

If we're talking danger, it doesn't get more dangerous than death. Sussex Police inspector Simon Labbett has spent many years trying to understand the reasons why bikers die.

'A lot of people have jumped on bandwagons and said, for example, that it's junctions. Well actually, for fatal crashes junctions aren't the problem,' he explains. 'To reduce the fatalities you have to focus on the riders. Because they often don't require anyone else to intervene - they're quite capable of doing it themselves.'

Strong stuff? His research tracked down what kinds of bike were involved in all 55 fatal accidents in Sussex between 2000 and 2003 - something not recorded in the standard police process. The results were staggering. Of the 55 fatalities, 37 occurred on sportsbikes '96 Blades, RIs, GSX-Rs and the like. Another 11 were on sports tourers - Blackbirds, VFRs and Fazers. Just two commuter riders died, with one fatal crash on a tourer and one on a retro. And in more than nine out of ten of all these deaths, rider error - usually excessive speed - was the main cause of the crash.

Even taking into account the popularity of sportsbikes in the UK, their depressingly strong showing was hugely disproportionate. 'The main time is July to September,' notes Simon drily. 'Male, 25-44, sportsbike, good weather, weekend, dry country road, 60mph limit, rider error, speed a factor. That's the hallmark of who is likely to die.'

In other words, someone like me, and maybe you. But the question Simon asked was: why? 'I decided to look at the psychological profile of the different groups,' he explains. 'We spent an entire summer at bike meets, asking all kinds of riders to fill in a questionnaire originally developed to profile adrenaline sport enthusiasts. The result showed the sensation-seeking desires of sportsbike riders were significantly higher than other groups of riders. It wasn't surprising that the guys who ride the real mean machines want the thrills out of life. What was surprising was that these riders alone seemed to deny their part in what was going on.' This attitude emerged from a question that asked riders who was to blame for the county's recent fatal accidents. The choices were mechanical failure, the road environment, car drivers, or motorcyclists themselves.

'Overwhelmingly, sports riders said it was the car drivers' fault,' reports Simon. 'Very rarely did they say it's the riders' fault. The other riders blamed car drivers too, but they also said it could be them - the sportsbike guys. So there's a division among motorcyclists themselves.'


The reasons why car drivers take the rap are easy enough to understand - even if, as Simon explains, they're flawed. 'Most bike collisions happen in built-up areas and those are indeed someone else's fault - a driver emerging from a side road and the familiar, "Sorry mate, I didn't see you" story.

'However, most fatal accidents happen in 60mph limits on rural roads. Failure to see the bike goes down dramatically and rider error becomes much more significant.'

Riders - and sportsbike riders in particular - were applying what they knew about urban areas to rural roads. But it's wrong.

What to do? Simon, who has his eye on a new Honda CBF1000, is convinced that training on its own won't achieve much. 'If you're dealing with control, not the rider's mindset, you could make the problem worse. If you take somebody, and say, "Look, you prat - if you take these lines it's far safer," the guy suddenly realises that instead of going round at 50 he can go round at 60. Nobody's dialled into his brain that the safe speed was 40. It's so important to address the mindset.

'Manufacturers agree with what I'm saying. They actually say, "We don't want to sell these bikes - it creates a bad image. We'd rather be selling cruisers".'

'Understanding potential variances in attitude, risk and behaviour of motorcyclists that may lead to fatal collisions'


Simon Labatt, November 2003
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DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 10/07/2015 :  9:30 AM
Thanks for both of those posts, Horse.

In the DfT breakdown of Midlands crashes, there are substantial differences to the US fatal crash data. In particular, right of way violation is a larger % and bends are smaller. Of course, there's the difference between fatal crashes and the much more numerous non-fatals, but it appears that Brit riders are better able to handle bends than Americans.

The Bike piece reminds me that I should pick up a copy more often than I do. This is a particularly interesting observation:


Simon, who has his eye on a new Honda CBF1000, is convinced that training on its own won't achieve much. 'If you're dealing with control, not the rider's mindset, you could make the problem worse. If you take somebody, and say, "Look, you prat - if you take these lines it's far safer," the guy suddenly realises that instead of going round at 50 he can go round at 60. Nobody's dialled into his brain that the safe speed was 40. It's so important to address the mindset.

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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2263 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 10/07/2015 :  9:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DataDan



The Bike piece reminds me that I should pick up a copy more often than I do. This is a particularly interesting observation:


Simon, who has his eye on a new Honda CBF1000, is convinced that training on its own won't achieve much. 'If you're dealing with control, not the rider's mindset, you could make the problem worse. If you take somebody, and say, "Look, you prat - if you take these lines it's far safer," the guy suddenly realises that instead of going round at 50 he can go round at 60. Nobody's dialled into his brain that the safe speed was 40. It's so important to address the mindset.





I think some of us would be the rider happy at 40 with a wide margin of safety, many of us would respect the rider that wants further training and experience to improve their line and go a bit faster and most of us know some with the type of ego that will test themselves on a corner at the high speed and then feel they have the training and ability because they didn't crash.
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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2263 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 10/07/2015 :  9:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OB

"In addition, the point the instructor makes about most fatal crashes NOT being caused by other motorists, though contrary to widespread belief among riders, is one that motorcyclists need to hear."

What percentage is given to the motorcyclist verses other drivers?



OB , The one thing that really hit home to me as well was that fact or statistic regarding motorcyclists as single vehicle accidents.

I'm going from memory but I'd researched this a few times over the years and the number I find is just over 40% of m/c crashes are single vehicle and I believe that stat hasn't varied much at all going back to the 1980's. That really puts the onus where it should and, keep in mind the number of crashes that did involve another vehicle but may have been 'preventable' with rider training, plp or other continued growth on skills.
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DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  9:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bachman1961

I think some of us would be the rider happy at 40 with a wide margin of safety, many of us would respect the rider that wants further training and experience to improve their line and go a bit faster and most of us know some with the type of ego that will test themselves on a corner at the high speed and then feel they have the training and ability because they didn't crash.

I agree completely. Labbett seems to overgeneralize about the effect of training. Not everyone puts improved skills into daily use. Some of us like to keep them in the bank for a rainy day (though they must be practiced occasionally).

His point, though, is that "better training" as a mandate from above may not have the effect of improving safety in the population. Some will use it that way. Others will use it to go around that bend at 60. The average effect is anyone's guess.

My opinion is that skill by itself doesn't make a rider safer. Safety is a result of good judgment in using the skills you have. Assuming one has that judgment, then skill improvement is still very positive because it can make riding more enjoyable without increasing risk.
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DataDan
Advanced Member
540 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  9:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bachman1961

OB , The one thing that really hit home to me as well was that fact or statistic regarding motorcyclists as single vehicle accidents.

I'm going from memory but I'd researched this a few times over the years and the number I find is just over 40% of m/c crashes are single vehicle and I believe that stat hasn't varied much at all going back to the 1980's. That really puts the onus where it should and, keep in mind the number of crashes that did involve another vehicle but may have been 'preventable' with rider training, plp or other continued growth on skills.

Correct. Since 1975, when NHTSA began publishing fatal crash data in the FARS database, fatal motorcycle crashes have consistently been 40-45% single-vehicle.
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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2263 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  10:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DataDan


I agree completely. Labbett seems to overgeneralize about the effect of training. Not everyone puts improved skills into daily use. Some of us like to keep them in the bank for a rainy day (though they must be practiced occasionally).

His point, though, is that "better training" as a mandate from above may not have the effect of improving safety in the population. Some will use it that way. Others will use it to go around that bend at 60. The average effect is anyone's guess.

My opinion is that skill by itself doesn't make a rider safer. Safety is a result of good judgment in using the skills you have. Assuming one has that judgment, then skill improvement is still very positive because it can make riding more enjoyable without increasing risk.



Well stated.
That average effect is no small point. I think it paints a characterization; Population by age, wisdom, experience, maturity, skill and most certainly by risk tolerance. Every Win may be tempered by an overconfident 'yahoo' that marginalizes the success in the stats.

I also think about our growth as we mature and begin to slow down a bit in most things we do(some of us anyways). Speaking for myself, as a teenager, it was all about keeping up with peers and showing off or pushing the speeds and challenges. Over time, I suspect our own or even others experiences start to shape the risk and reward ratio somewhat. Knowledge, restraint, responsibilities and even fear play a bigger role in choices as I moved into early adulthood and beyond.

Thinking this way, I picture many riders ever-evolving into safer riding and more focus if not appreciation for training and higher skills from whatever baseline they come from. Maybe the key to safer stats is a bigger percentage of older riders, yet even that is off-set by survival rates based on age in the case of crashes.

Edited by - bachman1961 on 10/08/2015 10:15 AM
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commonground
Male Standard Member
155 Posts


Windsor, PA
USA

Yamaha

V Star 1300

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  11:01 AM
"Motorcycling is not, of itself, inherently dangerous. It is however, extremely unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence or stupidity." Anonymous

It would be interesting to know how many motorcycle accidents fall into these categories. Obviously the accidents caused by the cage drivers accounts for many of the motorcycle accidents. I would venture to say that the four conditions stated above would cover the majority of the remaining single vehicle motorcycle accidents.
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gymnast
Moderator
4263 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  11:49 AM
Great discussion!

Back in the day, in the 1960s "Motorcycle boom years", the vast majority of new motorcycles sold were small displacement (under 250cc) inexpensive Japanese bikes,operated by teen age first time riders. The crash rate for "ignorant-fearless" first time young riders was the primary factor in the development original concepts for rider training at that time. Statistics at the time indicated that a high percentage of crashes were taking place within the first couple of weeks of ownership or operator experience. Young riders would let friends with absolutely no riding experience try out their "new transportation toy", often with tragic results. Protective gear was virtually non existent when these small motorcycles were marketed as "fun ideas".

The first knee jerk reaction of concerned politicians and motor vehicle authorities was to ban them where possible, mandate helmet laws, bring in stratified Drivers license requirements, and so forth. It was not until the late 1960s that initial efforts were made to provide localized efforts related to rider training. As motorcycle sales slowed during the 1970s, and motorcycle operator licensing became a federal mandate under the Highway Safety Act, the motorcycle industry responded and increasingly got behind the idea of "beginner rider training" and lobbied states to initiate programs.

By 1976, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation promoted itself as the exclusive arbiter of all things motorcycle safety. Problem was, the MSF avoided discussion of the "subtle" aspects of risk, danger, crashing, injury, and consequence. For the most part these aspects of motorcycling were ignored in efforts to maximize entry level rider training to meet bare minimum licensing requirement. Even the role of DMV administered on-street licensing exams was eventually abrogated to a great extent.

My 2 cents worth. Current motorcycle operator training is not hardly worth mentioning as compared to the training of a helicopter pilot. The immediate time-space consequences of error at altitude tend to far less than when flying close to the ground. Motorcyclists "flying" on the ground appear to need a bit more training and knowledge of time-space relationships, risk, and consequence.



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Horse
Senior Member
263 Posts


Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom

BMW

R850RT

Posted - 10/08/2015 :  1:47 PM
Apologies for reply above quote - posting from a tablet is a pain.

However, read this, on pilot trainjng and safety:

http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/lef...ology-safety

quote:
Originally posted by gymnast


Current motorcycle operator training is not hardly worth mentioning as compared to the training of a helicopter pilot. The immediate time-space consequences of error at altitude tend to far less than when flying close to the ground. Motorcyclists "flying" on the ground appear to need a bit more training and knowledge of time-space relationships, risk, and consequence.
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