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 Sharing of Lessons Learned
 Could this crash have been prevented ? (see video)
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Magnawing
Male Senior Member
281 Posts


The Woodlands, TX
USA

Honda

VF750C

Posted - 03/27/2014 :  5:56 AM Follow poster on Twitter
I just rewatched the video several times and I don't see where the curve, which appears to be about 50 yards ahead of the bike/behind the car, should not have been a factor in visibility as it wasn't a blind turn but more like a gentle bend in the road. Also, a little off-topic but still relevant...why was the small child in the front seat while what appears to be a grown man in too-short shorts was riding in the back? She may very well have been distracted by the child, as mentioned previously, and not paying full attention to the road ahead. If she slowed prior to the turn, it wasn't much before she turned. When I first watched the video, she turned so abruptly that I thought she had lost control of the vehicle and skidded across the road.

Again, I'm not a MVA crash expert but I do have experience in industrial accident reconstruction so I've gotten pretty good at figuring out what happened from watching security videos and investigating accident scenes to reconstruct series' of events to figure out WTH happened.
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Young Dai
Male Junior Member
67 Posts


Southend, Essex
United Kingdom

Honda

ST1100a

Posted - 03/28/2014 :  6:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

In NY you can cross a double line when entering or exiting a driveway, assuming it is safe to do so. You cannot cross it to pass (overtake) or to make a U-turn. My assumption has been that that holds true in most if not all states.



This is the treatment of solid white lines in UK as well. In the normal course of travel you may not cross or straddle the white line nearest to you ( apart from safely passing push bikes, horses, road maintance vehicles, parked vehicles and one or two other exceptions). But you can cross the line to make turns into side roads to your right (in the UK ).

The Arrows on the road that have excited discussion do not warn of sharp oncoming bends ...that would be by a road sign adjacent to the carrageway. But instead they warn you to get back onto the correct side of the road, because the carrageway markings will shortly change to solid white lines. Up to 5 arrows may be painted , in a built up area speed limit (see below), counting back from the begiing of the solid white line : the first will be around 1 second of travel from the beinging of the solid white lines on your side of the carriage way. the second arrrow 2 second of travel from the first , the 3rd arrow 3 seconds of travel from the 2nd, and so on. So you get a count down into the hazard


With the general suburban feel to the clutter of the road furtniture,(bus stops lights standards etc),as Horse says you would expect the road to have speed limit of 30mph. I am not good a judging speed from youtube vids espec on wide angle lenses, but the sensation of speed in this clip 'feels' a bit above that.

Again around town in a 30 limit I would expect to be in no higher that 2nd gear, so that the engine response is immediate should the throttle be open of closed. Reaching up for the brake lever would give automatic engine braking, which cannot be seen on the clip.
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gymnast
Moderator
4263 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 03/28/2014 :  11:48 AM
This similar deadly crash was not prevented yesterday morning.
http://www.ktvb.com/home/Nampa-man-...2697671.html
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1689 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Posted - 03/31/2014 :  12:41 PM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Originally posted by hellebauer

http://youtu.be/rvVouuH4tLQ
(In England, driving left)


I wonder if a swerve to the right might have saved the show. On any account, this all went quick, no time to think. So all reactions would have to be trained reflexes.

So our rider had 1.417 seconds from realization to crash (85/60)


According to the XL "Average Deceleration Rate From Max and Squeeze Time" from this site it takes 1.56seconds to stop from 30mph.



If there was 1.417 seconds, and since the rider hit the rear portion of the car, and by estimating 30mph (I think the crash damage, and the riders launch distance supports 30 or so), I used the Distance to Avoid Obstacle calculator. Input of 30mph, gives a 1.1 second time, including reaction time, to swerve 4 ft. Pretty close call, but I think he potentially misses the car.
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vprahl
Male Standard Member
122 Posts


The Woodlands, tx
USA

Honda

Rebel

Posted - 12/22/2014 :  7:29 AM
In regards to possibly swerving, David Hough strongly indicates that braking is the best choice. Swerving adds many other possible scenarios that can't really be addressed at the moment of the accident. Anyway, this accident is what I fear on several of the roads I have to ride in order to get out of my neighborhood. Second cars always have a high fear factor for me. And I ALWAYS cover my brake on those roads.
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1689 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Posted - 12/23/2014 :  10:06 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
I think we all pretty much agree that most of the time braking is the best choice. Even to simply reduced the crash speed from serious injury/death speed, to survivable speed. I've even done that myself with a left turner.

In this case though, viewing this video, and assuming the frames per second and all that are correct, this just may be one time swerving might have worked, where braking may not.
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Safe N Smiling
Male Junior Member
33 Posts


On a Bike Somewhere, Here and There
USA

(Unknown - Other)

Several Bikes

Posted - 09/18/2015 :  9:21 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I though I would add some thoughts.

One thing none of the posters on this thread noticed or mentioned is that the sun was behind and slightly to the left of the motorcyclist. This is a dangerous situation because the glare from the sun makes the motorcyclist pretty much invisible.

IF you can see your shadow in front of you need to know that it means you are almost invisible to oncoming traffic.

You must put on your high beams and auxiliary LED. Better still have a headlight modulator on. This will help somewhat, however you must rely on your acoustic signal.... you need to blow your horn. You must look out for cars slowing down or simply not going as fast as traffic. It is a sign that they are looking for turn. Blow your horn.

When you can see your shadow in front of you and even worse if it's pointing slightly towards the other lane you have to watch out for every oncoming car.
You have to watch out for the usual idiots, but you also have to watch out for those people that are normally very safe and considerate drivers.

I always say that it is out responsibility as drivers of small vehicles to make our selves a visible as possible and use our horn as a warning signal when visibility is impaired in some way.

While we're on the subject of the motorcycle horn, I highly recommend the Screaming Banshee. It is a secondary horn that works in tandem with your stock horn (with or without a small delay depending on what setting you choose). It is very loud and lets you in delay mode use both your stock horn and Screamming Banshee. It can also be setup to flash your light every time the Screaming Banshee kicks in.

I like this because it lets you "politely" use your stock horn to sort of say ..."hey I'm Here"
with the added benefit of the super loud horn when needed. Best of all it uses your stock horn switch to commend both horns and the screaming Banshee has a control box that does not put more load on your horn switch.

One last thing. IF you have shadow is in front of you there are a few other things you can do.

1) IF your just on a joy ride turn around and go the other way if you can, just really watch out for the sun in your face.

2) Get behind a few cars. Stay close enough to be protected by their larger profile that is more visible to oncoming traffic. However keep a safe braking distance to.

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greywolf
Male Moderator
1492 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 09/19/2015 :  8:28 AM
The trouble with that is a safe distance behind another vehicle is a place where a left (right in UK and some other countries) turner will jump into as a bike is harder to notice due to an effect known as motion camouflage. I'd rather be outstanding from other traffic and doing the SMIDSY weave or SIAM maneuver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQ...RcbUgHHvKmuQ
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Safe N Smiling
Male Junior Member
33 Posts


On a Bike Somewhere, Here and There
USA

(Unknown - Other)

Several Bikes

Posted - 09/19/2015 :  10:00 AM
Weaving to be seen has it's pros and cons. However in this situation I doubt it would help as the sun behind the rider and in the drivers face is the problem. This IMO is a clear case where the horn and watching oncoming traffic behavior is the best option.

Weaving also sends a mixed message and will get you a ticket in most places.
That said a mixed message is still a message. However most car drivers with low confidence tend to continue doing what they are doing until they figure out what is going on.

Also in this case the car driver is moving and the video of the weave is about stop signs. two different situations.



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magnaman
Male Standard Member
107 Posts


lake bluff, il
USA

Honda

Magna 700

Posted - 03/07/2016 :  7:35 PM
There have been a number of posts commenting on the rider not braking until the last moment... the timing of the car turning, gave the rider just over a second to react. Given it usually takes 1.5 seconds from awareness to braking, by definition then, the rider could ONLY brake at the "last moment." My issues here have been stated, the riders should have been aware of the multiple driveways, narrow road, number of people, etc. In my view this accident happened when they started down this road not being consciously aware of the hazards in play. It could not have been avoided given the circumstances of the accident. It could have been avoided by being aware of the hazards on that specific road as they traveled down the road. I have always ridden assuming no one can see me... that helps keep the rubber side down.
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magnaman
Male Standard Member
107 Posts


lake bluff, il
USA

Honda

Magna 700

Posted - 03/07/2016 :  7:36 PM
There have been a number of posts commenting on the rider not braking until the last moment... the timing of the car turning, gave the rider just over a second to react. Given it usually takes 1.5 seconds from awareness to braking, by definition then, the rider could ONLY brake at the "last moment." My issues here have been stated, the riders should have been aware of the multiple driveways, narrow road, number of people, etc. In my view this accident happened when they started down this road not being consciously aware of the hazards in play. It could not have been avoided given the circumstances of the accident. It could have been avoided by being aware of the hazards on that specific road as they traveled down the road. I have always ridden assuming no one can see me... that helps keep the rubber side down.
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