(Please visit one of our advertisers)

No donations or subscriptions are required

   OR   
   
Subscription choices:
Board Karma = 40  (3459 positive of 3842 votes is 40 %pts higher than a neutral 50%)
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle   
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


 All Forums
 50 Most Recent Posts
Off Theme / Puzzles and Games
Jeu Chiant
EdisonKoch
07/29/2022  7:40 AM
Yeah, I did try on it but could not make it. Sadly I was having this https://silicophilic.com/samsung-tv...en-problems/ issue.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Threshold Braking
scottrnelson
07/15/2022  5:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Ain't electronics grand?
I bought a new 2021 Ford this past January. Although it did not come with the remote start feature that you can get by pushing a button on a key fob, I can run an app on my phone called FordPass that will allow me to remotely start it. From 1000 miles away if I want.

I was okay with that, but sometimes I let some air out of the tires if I'm going to drive in sand or something and the car notifies Ford about that too and the app complains to me about it. So I disabled the feature because I don't want the car ratting me out. And I don't want it automatically updating some software on its own either. I might re-enable it next winter when we start getting 10 degree mornings and I want the defroster on before going out in the cold, but not during normal weather.

Since it's a Base model, it doesn't have many of the advanced features like a navigation system. I have to hook up my old Garmin to do that.
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/15/2022  5:29 PM
That is the main reason I am not interested in navigation systems or newer vehicles equipped with them. You cannot control features nor can you turn it off. The same with 99.99% of smart phones (I made up that percentage, but think it is pretty close!). Big brother is watching.
Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/15/2022  2:18 PM
Amazing set of electronic advances were just described. More power to you and my best wishes.

Still, it makes sense to me to practice threshold braking and leave the ABS and other electronics to saving your life if you make a mistake. You just might be skillful enough to never need it.

About all the magical electronics that are finding their way into vehicles ...

Did you know that when/if you get into a serious accident when driving a vehicle that has nav/information (navigation/radio/telephone) technology installed the police can EASILY determine WHERE you've been over the previous 10 days, WHO you've called and WHO has called you over that same time frame, the TELEPHONE NUMBER on both sides of those calls, the GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION of both sides of those calls, your CONTACT LIST, what radio stations you listen to, (and POSSIBLY what WEB SITES you visit), HOW FAST you were traveling at the time of impact, what your DECELERATION RATE was both lateral and longitudinal (brake usage and skid/slide) for some time before the impact, any and all vehicle MALFUNCTIONS and warnings (time for maintenance needed), and whether or not you drank coffee that morning?

OK, your vehicle doesn't (YET) test your breath or blood for coffee or drugs, but you get the point.

Oh, a warrant isn't needed to access all of that information!!! Your dealership can get it in less than five minutes even without a collision. Do you think your wife/husband/boyfriend or girlfriend/ mother/father/drug dealer/employer/bank/IRS/police etc. might be interested?

Could ANYBODY be interested in how close to the capital you (or who you interact with) was on January 6th?

Have you ever heard of the Internet of Things (IoT)? Do you honestly believe that Google or some other organization hasn't made or isn't planning on getting that information remotely as soon as possible? Do you think that the police might be interested in causing your vehicle to slow/turn/stop on command?

Ain't electronics grand?
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/15/2022  11:11 AM
My current Ninja has ABS, Traction Control, Intelligent Anti-Lock Brakes, lean Angle Indicator, Cornering Management Function, IMU Enhanced Chassis Orientation Awareness, Assist & Slipper Clutch, and Quick Shifter up and down.

My previous two Ninja's one had traction control and the other nothing. I felt safer on either of these two than my current and I challenge the current far less than I did the previous two. I think this is in part my distrust of what I cannot see, feel, or adjust! Of course there is the getting old thing as well.
Threshold Braking
scottrnelson
07/15/2022  8:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

What concerns me more is that tests have shown that ABS works badly while traveling in other than a straight line.
Many of the newer bikes have lean angle sensors and can adjust the ABS behavior when in a turn. My 2020 KTM has it. Not that I would trust it, though.
Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/14/2022  7:29 PM
I've been an IT specialist in one form or another for more than 60 years (since 1961). You'd think that I would trust electronics with my life more than I do. Wrong!

When ABS first appeared on motorcycles, I was dead set against it. The recycle speed (deactivation to activation of the brakes) was far too slow for me and I saw many tests where good braking skills outperformed ABS in real life. But recycle speeds have increased dramatically and that is no longer my concern.

What concerns me more is that tests have shown that ABS works badly while traveling in other than a straight line.

However, I agree with what was just said...ABS is almost magical in effectiveness over a non-trained, lower experienced rider who doesn't practice braking skills. And it's the wet spot or ice or bit of oil/grease on the roadway that proves the life-saving advantage of ABS for almost anybody. So, I, too, advocate having a bike equipped with ABS.

When self-driving automobiles become plentiful, count me out! I believe in the efficacy of an alert, trained mind with experience over any form of electronics. Besides, I like to be in control.
Threshold Braking
rkfire
07/14/2022  7:04 PM
My current bike has ABS and is the first bike I have had it.

For my money, ABS is a great advantage to practice threshold braking, in that I practice braking hard up to but not beyond the point of engaging the ABS system.

ABS engages when sensing the tire is not rolling, so if I avoid engaging it I am close.

I think, I am braking harder and shorter than if ABS is engaged. I'd rather leave the ABS to do it's thing in the wet or slippery conditions.

One other oddity on this BMW is the telelever front suspension. Supposed to having less brake dive than regular forks, I personally prefer regular forks and after all these years, the fork dive seemed to be part of my feel for braking hard.
Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/14/2022  6:51 PM
One more thing ...

Studies have suggested that most riders SELF-LIMIT their braking efforts to about 0.8G's. No idea how accurate that assessment is, but the explanations include
1) Fear of being tossed over the handlebars
2) Having experienced a skid, they want to slow down without a skid

So, if you practice threshold braking in an effort to reliably achieve a deceleration rate of 0.85G's, you are CERTAINLY learning how to stop more quickly than most riders even believe they can safely do so.
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/14/2022  6:45 PM
Thank You James good stuff.
Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/14/2022  6:39 PM
A couple of important points to consider ...

As I've said before, threshold braking should NOT be thought of as attaining as close to a skid (or ABS-like) as possible. Instead, it should be thought of as being able to reliably achieve a deceleration rate that is greater than what you get if skidding. It is DANGEROUS to try to get close to a skid.

Second, when you are practicing braking skills, you should do it at close to 30 MPH, NOT FASTER!! The idea is to FEEL the deceleration rate in order to recognize that you are achieving your objective. A 0.85G deceleration rate feels the same at 30 MPH as it does at any other speed, so you gain nothing practicing at a higher speed except more danger.

Finally, as has been shared here already, you can EXPECT that adrenaline will push up your deceleration rate during a reaction to a serious threat. If you attempt to get something like a 0.85G deceleration rate reliably during practice, during a real emergency you can expect to achieve more than a 0.9G rate - for that very reason. Practicing an effort to get a 0.95G rate will with high confidence result in skidding during a panic stop attempt!!!!
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/14/2022  2:54 PM
I think it would be expected to brake harder when something large and harmful is in our path than when we are training or practicing. Good that you stopped short and held it under control.

I should add, when I am threshold braking, I'm not braking/slowing/stopping by the definition of threshold braking with my current bike. There is no way to turn off the ABS or cornering computer. So, maybe I should call it practicing threshold ABS braking!!!

My previous bikes didn't have ABS and I could slip both front and rear tires to feel the force I needed to fall just short of the slip (but even that is not threshold braking by definition). But unless we can slip the tires how do we know where the threshold is? Even then with so many variables I would get it sometimes or other times not. Perhaps we play a little loose with the term threshold. I welcome other opinions on this. I bet somewhere on this forum James has discussed it.


Threshold Braking
rkfire
07/14/2022  1:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Six


During any type of brake training whether than be beginner (MSF) type or more advanced high speed threshold skills, my concern is the difference between typical training scenarios (parking lot or track based) as compared to the reality of an obstruction and how that psychologically/physiologically effects our skills in the real world.



Nonetheless on both of these occasions my fright meter was pegging towards the maximum. If any of these 3 were missing I may not have ended with that safe distance and might have experienced a collision.

I have never felted alarmed about stopping in a short distance while training when there is no harmful penalty if I fail. I have never had any training that presented an obstruction similar to reality. I have thought about methods of simulation and have never come up with anything practical and safe that would be covered by liability insurance.

Bottom line of this is, there is a sizable difference between threshold braking skills to a safe stop during skills development training than when we are facing a large obstruction that will hurt us if we don't get stopped to avoid it, and most of that difference is between our ears. Regardless, I continue to train and use visualization techniques to edge closer to reality based training.





I too practice threshold braking, but mostly to get that muscle memory and the overall feel of the hard braking.

I just rely on that.

I had one real scare some years ago and talked about it on this site. For this discussion, I think it worth noting that during that scare, I was thinking.....minimize my crash speed as much as possible. (I didn't crash but there was a scant few feet left to the impact)

I think one other thing of note in my situation. I actually braked harder than I ever practiced. The urgency, the adrenaline, got me squeezing just a little more.
Threshold Braking
scottrnelson
07/14/2022  1:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Six

Scott, are there times in some turns when you slide the rear tire to turn, rather than slowing to steer with the front?
In theory, you can do that, but I haven't been able to reliably do it on the dirt that we have around here. There is one dirt road in the area that gets wonderful traction right after a rain where it kind of works when heading uphill, but generally I don't get good enough front tire traction anywhere else to still be able to steer if the rear is sliding.

I've read up on the subject and watched videos about it, but can't get it to work, so I've gone back to what works well for me. I just go slower in the turns and keep the bike as upright as possible. And try to avoid situations where I have to do any serious braking right before a turn...
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/14/2022  9:57 AM
Scott, are there times in some turns when you slide the rear tire to turn, rather than slowing to steer with the front? It's been over 15 years since I have been on serious dirt/trails and even then I rode a dirt bike just enough to be dangerous! In a lot of turns I would throttle to break the rear loose and slide a bit to get direction in the turns. I don't remember ever threshold braking on dirt, but maybe that is in part why I fell over now and then. Also I have never ridden a heavy adventure bike on trails. I do ride my street bike on dirt that is well graded but that is easy stuff.

Had to "lay her down".
aidacid9
07/14/2022  6:59 AM
interesting information
Threshold Braking
scottrnelson
07/13/2022  4:11 PM
Occasionally when riding on dirt roads, I have to slow by quite a bit when the road turns and I have picked up a bit too much speed on the straight parts, or I'm headed downhill. Usually I'm on loose stuff like in the photo below. There is typically about an inch of dirt and or gravel on top, so there isn't a whole lot of traction available. To slow down in those conditions I try to be fairly even with the front and rear brakes, with a slight bias toward the front. This might take me to the side of the road a bit until I get slowed enough because steering doesn't really do much on dirt like that. In other words, the bike tends to go straight until it has dropped enough speed to turn.

I'm guessing I barely hit 0.2G of deceleration in those conditions. I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to threshold braking on clean pavement other than that it's one more situation where I'm trying to figure out how much braking I can get away with without sliding the front tire. It doesn't really matter much if the rear slides or not. On my Honda XR650L, there is no electronic assist to the braking, but the KTM has ABS and a mode that is supposed to know what to do in off road conditions. I still don't trust ABS to save me, though.

When riding on the street my goal is to pay attention to what's ahead so that I never come close to threshold braking. On dirt, sometimes it's necessary to get closer to the limit.

Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/13/2022  12:03 PM
Thank You Scott for posting the article, photo and your comment.

At the risk of sliding this thread farther from center.....(and it's a bit long as well)

During any type of brake training whether than be beginner (MSF) type or more advanced high speed threshold skills, my concern is the difference between typical training scenarios (parking lot or track based) as compared to the reality of an obstruction and how that psychologically/physiologically effects our skills in the real world.

I have had several threshold training schools at speed. I, solo, and 2-up with my wife, self-train (practice) threshold braking regularly (at least every other month, sometimes monthly). My reaction during school training and during our self-training is different than the few times I have actually used threshold braking to avoid a collision.

Once when an SUV suddenly obstructed my path, and once with a full size dead bull obstructed my path. Both times I used threshold braking, both times I stopped with lots of safe space between me and the obstruction. I credit that safe distance to three aspects. 1) my threshold training and recurring self-training. 2) I was at speed, but not excessive speed. 3) I was prepared to stop if surprised.

Nonetheless on both of these occasions my fright meter was pegging towards the maximum. If any of these 3 were missing I may not have ended with that safe distance and might have experienced a collision.

I have never felted alarmed about stopping in a short distance while training when there is no harmful penalty if I fail. I have never had any training that presented an obstruction similar to reality. I have thought about methods of simulation and have never come up with anything practical and safe that would be covered by liability insurance.

Bottom line of this is, there is a sizable difference between threshold braking skills to a safe stop during skills development training than when we are facing a large obstruction that will hurt us if we don't get stopped to avoid it, and most of that difference is between our ears. Regardless, I continue to train and use visualization techniques to edge closer to reality based training.

Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/13/2022  5:58 AM
Fascinating information and extreme skill evidenced.

This thread is not about how to do threshold braking or how to be the most effective brake operator, just that braking is not just 'squeeze' and 'step' pressures. Threshold braking is, as you said, making your bike act like it has ABS, or being more conservative than that and just making it slow faster than it would when skidding. It is important that our readers NOT think that threshold braking means trying to get as close to a skid as possible!

Apparently, you are a true student of the sport. You know, for example, that effective braking also includes masterful control of body posture to take advantage of air flow (turbulence) in order to add or remove weight and, thus, traction. (An interesting aside--if your bike, including you, weighs 800 lbs. at zero MPH, it typically weighs about 750 lbs. when moving at 75 MPH.)

This site was designed to educate our readers to the end of increasing their odds of surviving our sport, not winning. Winning involves compromizing safety. I leave that to racers, not street riders.

Great picture!

Threshold Braking
scottrnelson
07/13/2022  2:36 AM
I hope I'm not derailing the discussion with this...

Just yesterday I was reading another great Kevin Cameron article about motorcycle steering heads and the forces that they have to deal with. That article is here: https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bl...d-explained/

I found out that the MotoGP bikes can achieve up to 1.45G of deceleration and that the top riders hover the rear wheel just barely off of the pavement when slowing from high speed to a much slower corner. Not something any of us should be trying, just something I didn't know before. Those guys are right at the edge of the top line on the graph. Also, their tires have something to do with maximum braking achievable, not just the road surface. When they're warmed up they get better traction, but start losing some of it toward the end of the race when they start to wear out.

Here's a photo from that article of Fabio Quartararo, last year's champion, doing it coming into a corner. It's not so obvious watching in real time, but some slow motion shots have the rear wheel in the air for quite a long time.
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/12/2022  12:26 PM
Thank You for cleaning up the graphics. It seems the attorney paid attention in lawyer school, never ask a question you don't already know the answer, and if you know the right answer, ask the right question!

Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/12/2022  9:09 AM
I apologize that I did not post the right graphic for the third chart earlier. Clumsy keyboarding.

As to your question...the attorney understood it just fine. He knew that I would present the concept during deposition and during trial so he only had to ask the 'right' questions.
Threshold Braking
Eagle Six
07/12/2022  8:15 AM
Good stuff James, Thank You for sharing and Thank You for putting the illustrations together. There are many riders I have met that have never experienced 1g braking (or acceleration). Threshold Braking is just a term they have heard but don't understand the application and intermix it with emergency braking. I have attended three advanced skills courses over the years that explore the practical application of threshold braking (which is good)(not MSF courses), but lack explaining the science in-depth (which is bad). Even the best of classes I have attended are challenged with time constraint effecting the choice of what is included in their curriculums!

Curious question, did the attorney understand your explanation to the point he could use it effectively?
Threshold Braking
James R. Davis
07/12/2022  5:19 AM
Recently an attorney asked me to explain 'effective braking' by a motorcyclist. He knew nothing about motorcycles and when I told him that motorcycles have two braking systems (front and rear), he became agitated when he realized that understanding how best to use their brakes, motorcyclists simply might not know.

So, I presented him a part of a report I'd written in the past that discussed 'Threshold Braking' and I think our readers here might appreciate what was in that report as well as him.
---

Effective Braking

A deceleration rate of 1.0G means that speed is being reduced by 32.17 feet per second each second the object is moving. For the layman, that means that a vehicle slowing at a deceleration rate of 1.0G is scrubbing speed by almost exactly 22 MPH every second it is slowing.

Almost any motorcycle can achieve a deceleration rate of nearly 1.0G with normal tire tread and normal brakes on a level and dry roadway. Plaintiff's motorcycle was capable of decelerating at a rate of nearly 1.0G.

Traction is what determines how much braking pressure can be used in order to slow a vehicle's motion. Traction is a function of a tire's rubber quality and tread and the Coefficient of Friction (CoF) of the roadway's surface. A given motorcycle can, for example, slow more quickly on a concrete roadway than it can on an asphalt roadway, because concrete has a higher CoF than does asphalt. Roadway surfaces actually have two different Cofs at the same time. The first is known as the Riding or Rolling CoF and is higher than the second, which is known as the Sliding CoF.

The graphs below show the dynamics involved during braking for a typical roadway. This discussion and the following graphs are intended only to explain the dynamics of proper braking of a motorcycle and do not purport to be exactly representative of the actual CoF values at the scene of any particular incident. The first graph shows that if sufficient braking force is applied to generate any deceleration rate below 1.1G's, that roadway will allow the vehicle tires to continue rolling. If the deceleration rate were to reach 1.1G's, however, then the tire would immediately begin to slide (skid), and the deceleration rate of the vehicle would fall to about 0.825G's as that tire continues to skid along the surface. A rolling vehicle thus can decelerate more quickly than can a skidding one.



If braking is done too aggressively and results in a deceleration rate equal to 1.1G's, then this is what happens:



Appropriate braking (best practices for fastest slowing) is called Threshold Braking. It involves applying enough braking pressure to get anywhere above 0.825G's but below 1.1G's.


R.I.P. G.W.R.R.A.
James R. Davis
07/11/2022  7:49 PM
Apparently the GWRRA is being disbanded effective the end of this month.

I spent many weekends attending and making presentations to GWRRA groups and was a safety officer for some of them too. Introduced Cash to touring by taking her to a Wing Ding event. Enjoyed being a part of an organization sincerely aimed at safety and and good motorcycle design.
Had to "lay her down".
Eagle Six
07/07/2022  6:46 PM
Thank You James.
Had to "lay her down".
James R. Davis
07/07/2022  8:57 AM
It depends on the jurisdiction and the judge.

I'm not an attorney and cannot offer a legal opinion, but I believe a jury can almost always ask for evidentiary information via a note to the judge who, if he/she chooses to, confers with the attorneys to see if there are any objections while the jury is out of the room. If none, the question is answered.

I have never personally seen a jury ask for more information during a trial.

Some judges go the extra mile and at the end of a witness's testimony, particularly technically oriented expert witnesses where a jury might need something clarified, invites the jury to ask for clarification (via notes) and the witness is asked to do so. RARE!!!
Had to "lay her down".
Eagle Six
07/07/2022  7:29 AM
From what I have read, being a motorcyclist, the plaintiff attorney would probably jump on me as a juror figuring I would be sympathetic to his client. That would be a mistake as I would probably be one of those who would educate the other 11 jurors. and would vote against the motorcyclist.

Jim, question - In a case like this, do the jurors have an opportunity to ask questions, via the judge, about the case? Or, are their decisions based only in what has been presented by both sides? Obviously I have never been a juror.
Had to "lay her down".
rkfire
07/06/2022  9:26 PM
Yes, the motorcyclist was the plaintiff.

Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned a jury since I don't know for sure it wasn't settled at the last minute. The truck driver only told me the trial was set for a few weeks from that conversation.

I bet your hunch is correct that the lawyer figured there would be some offer to settle at some point.

I didn't mention it, and maybe should have. The motorcyclist is the sort that wears a half helmet, T-shirt, no gloves, either jeans or shorts depending on how warm it is. He mentioned a knee injury, and a lot of road rash.
Had to "lay her down".
James R. Davis
07/05/2022  12:45 PM
Thanks for the post.

Since the only party to have suffered damage and/or injury was the motorcyclist, I assume he brought the suit (was the plaintiff).

From what you told us, it's hard to understand why an attorney would take the case. But I've seen similar battles before and know that many attorneys will take on any case because far more than half (far more) will simply be settled to save everybody the expense of a trial. Since this went on and on, bad bet on the attorney's part.

Yep, we know that the motorcyclist contributed significantly (rider errors) and we have an idea that the truck driver probably contributed in a modest way. The motorcyclist would not want me on his jury, but a group of 12 non-motorcyclists could be fooled.
Had to "lay her down".
rkfire
07/05/2022  12:14 PM
I enter this separately because it's not on point, in that I have no idea what the jury decided.

I know of, but wasn't a witness to an "accident" between motorcyclist and pickup driver. I know both of them, but they didn't know each other.

Essentially, the pickup driver was backing onto the street from a driveway and the motorcycle was travelling in the lane where the driveway enters the road. The motorcyclist perceived an imminent crash, locked up the rear tire, and "laid it down". He and the motorcycle skidded to a stop 10 t0 20 ft. in front of the truck position. Neither hit the truck.

The first person to relay the story to me was the motorcyclist. When I attempted to ask him, since he never hit the truck by sliding, wouldn't simply braking using rubber instead of skin and chrome have worked better. He said he had to lay it down, you had to be there.

Talking with the pickup owner, at the moment of the crash, he was confused as to why the bike crashed, and thought there was ample room for him to pull out onto the road.

No tickets were issued. The pickup driver told me it was going on for years with insurance, depositions, and trial. I do not know the outcome of trial.

The motorcyclist hasn't spoken to me since that day I asked him about braking properly.

I wasn't there, but from what both parties told me, I think this was 100% motorcyclist fault.
Accidents vs Rider Errors (Causation)
Eagle Six
07/04/2022  2:27 PM
Thank You James, great information.
Accidents vs Rider Errors (Causation)
James R. Davis
07/04/2022  8:44 AM
That's pretty funny - bravo.

However, you provided an excellent point that demonstrates why the jury must assess the relative contribution values for both the defendant and the plaintiff. If, for example, in the case you presented, the jury found that proper usage of brakes or change of path could have resulted in the avoidance of the collision entirely, then your facts could result in the motorcyclist being held primarily responsible for it.

Juries have to be instructed very precisely as to their responsibilities. A jury member who decides that had the motorcyclist not gotten out of bed that morning there would not have been a collision makes the system a sham. The judge would not allow that to happen by providing proper jury instructions.

Again, to your facts...if doing both resulted in the loss of control of the motorcycle, he would be assessed as having contributed more to the causation than if he had remained in control.

Each case is unique and demonstrates why, if you need a lawyer, you want one who knows and understands motorcycling.

All this talk about comparative amounts of contributed negligence also highlights that each state has its own rules. In some states, for example, comparative negligence rules specify that compensation is absolutely determined by percentage. Others, more than half, specify that there is a threshold value (typically 51%) such that if the plaintiff contributed at least that amount, the case is simply lost - no compensation at all.
Accidents vs Rider Errors (Causation)
Eagle Six
07/04/2022  7:37 AM
"you could have applied your brakes (aggressively) or you could have changed your path of travel (aggressively), but not both at the same time." If you DID do both at the same time, would that then be, "you CONTRIBUTED causatively to the collision but you DIDN'T CAUSE IT." ?

Accidents vs Rider Errors (Causation)
James R. Davis
07/03/2022  8:07 AM
It probably will not surprise you to know that attorneys are word smiths. They very carefully choose the words they use when arguing their cases.

It also should not surprise you to know that plaintiff attorneys choose to use the words "Rider Error" while defense attorneys prefer "Accident" when describing the same events.

My perspective:

Very few motorcycle accidents are actually accidents (or Acts of God). Instead, they are planned, deliberate activities, except for the crash. When a curve in the roadway is posted with a 35 MPH speed limit sign and a motorcyclist elects to try to take it at 70 MPH, then when his motorcycle tires lose traction and he crashes, that was a planned and deliberate action, except for the crash. This would be an example of rider error, not an accident.

When a motorcyclist travels 15 MPH over the posted speed limit, it is incontrovertibly a planned and deliberate choice on the part of the motorcyclist. Should a collision occur as a result of that excess speed, that is also an example of rider error instead of an accident.

Guess what else results from choosing to use the words "rider error" instead of "accident". A compelling argument for also using the words "reckless" and "negligence". Those words are legal landmines that can cost you both money and freedom.

This is a much bigger topic than it first appears to be. Civil trials attempt to determine causation - who or what caused an incident of damage or injury.

In the 43 civil trials I've worked only TWO found that the motorcyclist did not contribute to the cause of the incident while all the rest found that the motorcyclist contributed, in part, to the incident.

Let me be clear about that. If you are riding on a road and an 18-wheeler makes a left turn in front of you and a collision occurs, you had two possibilities to avoid that collision: you could have applied your brakes (aggressively) or you could have changed your path of travel (aggressively), but not both at the same time. If, instead of doing either, you froze at your controls and did nothing, you CONTRIBUTED causatively to the collision but you DIDN'T CAUSE IT.

The jury would be tasked to determine what percentage of all the causative factors you contributed. That percentage determines the outcome of the trial.

Your feedback is welcome.
Motorcycle Safety / Trip Reports
66 @ 66
Eagle Six
07/01/2022  9:59 AM
Thank You for the ride report Mikey, it was enjoyable to read and good to hear your adventure was safe and you returned with a bunch of great memories.

66 @ 66
Mikeydude
06/30/2022  10:51 AM
Well - here's the big take away... At my age and condition, as long as I take care of myself along the ride, and prepare myself for the ride, it's do-able. This ride was everything I hoped it would be. Except that it ended way too soon.

James warned me there would be rain, and there was rain - even though we never felt a drop... lol, it sure messed with the roads. And even though we made direction maps it was still important to have GPS with us... just in case.

There was a single bad experience on the entire trip. It was with a motel owner that had a problem with bikers. He ultimately asked us to leave and escorted us off of the property. This was all over a parking spot of all things. We stayed at a different motel and saved $40 in the process.

But we met so many really cool people from all over the world. There was a guy from Sweden riding with a guy from Dallas. We met a couple that were traveling the entire route... She was from Dallas, he was from England. We kept bumping into them in different towns. Very memorable people. And there was the guy traveling with his daughter. He rides 66 every year - with a different daughter. They are from Los Angeles. Then the old farmer, the old rancher in the steak-house, the Native-American woman that owned the tiny gas station... They were all great.

We left a gas station and rode about 100 miles, and Pam realized she left her wallet at that stop. We called them and a sweet lady named Saraih found it, boxed it up and mailed it to us. She went out of her way to do something that nice. And there was the biker club that was stopped at a gas station in the heat... They invited us to hang out in the beer cooler with them. Great idea!!! So was putting our helmets in the ice coolers when we stopped. Whoever came up with that in the tips needs a raise!

The Camelbaks were so important, especially on the way home. We hit the extreme temperatures then. We went through Crowell - the Evening News said it was 110 degrees there that day. Whoa - I was willing to cancel if the temps were going to be over 93? The Texas roads were flat and miles and miles of nothing. No trees anywhere to even stop and grab some shade. But it really wasn't that terrible with the ice bags on our backs.

We accomplished everything we set out to do with the exception of 17 miles of original roadway. On Google Maps the Street View did not map that section, so the only view we had of the roadway was from satellite, and it looked like a lot of dirt. It had rained the night before and I was concerned about getting several miles into the road and hitting impassible mud and having to turn around. This was in Glen Rio... a Ghost Town. We elected to follow I-40 for that section. Better safe than sorry.

The only "break down" was when I lost a turn signal lens somewhere. I think it wanted to stay in New Mexico more than come back to Texas.

I hope you can get some insight to the things we had to overcome and find a lesson from our travels. If it were not for this site and the wisdom of the people here there could have been issues. I give my thanks for all I've learned here.

Now - Please stand by for the next adventure. We are planning a shorter expedition - this time to San Antonio... The plan is to visit China Grove (Doobie Bros) and La Grange (ZZ Top)... I found the location of the original Chicken Ranch too - PHOTO OP!!! Then we plan to stop by the gas station from the movie Texas Chainsaw Massacre and have some BBQ. They have cabins there now so it would be cool to stay over one night.

Thanks you guy!!!
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Totaled - what does that mean?
James R. Davis
06/29/2022  8:43 AM
Have you ever seen the results of an accident where the insurance company declared that the wrecked vehicle was 'totaled' when you saw what appeared to be only superficial damage?

I mean, say a motorcycle's front-end was crushed but the rest of the motorcycle was virtually pristine? That engine and body and luggage and upholstery was like new after the accident. Surely you wouldn't consider it 'totaled' yet the insurance company does.

Why?

Insurance companies are like any other business, trying to make a profit. If, after evaluating the cost to repair a vehicle they conclude that it will cost more than the vehicle was worth at the time of the accident, that vehicle has been totaled. They are right - from their perspective. I assure you that they do not credit sentimental value in their calculations.

While I'm in no position to speak for or against insurance company methods, I have had opportunity to look behind the scenes and observe what at least one such company goes through to determine what their liability is following an accident. I was amazed to see the documentation and effort put into determining (apparently, at least to me, all in good faith) what their liability was.

Don't forget, your policy may have a co-pay or deduction clause to it. That, too, in my opinion, is fair.

Motorcycle Safety / Trip Reports
66 @ 66
Mikeydude
06/28/2022  1:09 PM
Almost every town we went through had some old attraction. Canute has a giant suit of armor holding it's Route 66 sign. Mclean has the first Philips 66 in Texas, and the remnants of the Graham Hotel. There were tons of old, restored or partially restored filling stations. There were also a lot of old dead filling stations. You can tell from the shape of the buildings what they were. Same with some old diners, and the many motels. It would have been really neat to see it when it was still alive.

A couple of the towns had made a decision to embrace the Route 66 legacy... Like Shamrock, Texas. They had a few old motels that were still operating, and they have the U-Drop Inn, which used to be The Tower Inn and Gas (Elvis ate here - lol). This is extremely cool. It was used in the movie Cars as Ramones. At night it's all lit up with neon, just like the old days. Quite a sight. And the people are so nice. The owner saw we were taking pictures of all the lights and he turned on the interior lights for a better view.

And Tucumcari, New Mexico. They have many motels and restaraunts from the old days, and they light up the night with all the neon.

When we got up the morning when we stayed in Shamrock there were severe storms on the way again. 35 miles north of town was the crossroads that were in the movie Castaway, with Tom Hanks. It was on my agenda to go there and take some pics. I mean, we're that close - we have to, right? It was a gamble, but I took it anyway. We were headed straight into the storms so it was a race to see if we could get there and get back before we got hit. Turns out the storms were headed diagonally towards the area and only grazed the eastern part of town. We made it and didn't get a single drop.

The toughest part of this entire trip was remaining flexible. There were things we wanted to experience, but situations didn't allow it simply because we were on the bike. But we still accomplished most of what we wanted without compromising our safety. Another James wisdom.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Just finished a criminal case - pay attention!
Eagle Six
06/26/2022  9:25 AM
Thank You James for the report, it is important information.

The justice system doesn't always deliver justice!
Just finished a criminal case - pay attention!
James R. Davis
06/25/2022  11:29 AM
Though I've worked as an expert witness (Motorcycle Safety and Dynamics) in 42 civil cases, I just finished working my fist criminal case. I learned a great deal in the process, virtually none of it healthy or satisfying.

First, let me setup a learning experience for you--

You are driving an SUV on a public road and approach a signaled intersection where your light is red. You stop and wait for the light to change to green. It doesn't. You wait through three full signal changes (all the other signal lights are working. But yours remains red throughout).

What do you do?

My advice is simple: assume the failing signal light is a blinking red light instead of a solidly on red light. In other words, after stopping at the intersection, make an extra effort to see if there are any threats to you ALL AROUND! Seeing none, carefully cross the intersection but remain vigilant.

Guess what can happen to you if you do that, however. You can be charged with MANSLAUGHTER and sent to jail for two years!!!!

Well, not automatically, of course.

See, if the speed limit for the cross traffic is 50 MPH and there is a motorcycle driving toward that intersection from your right is moving at 70 MPH, you probably either wont see it if it is far enough away, or you wont think of it as a threat because you will consider it too far away to reach you while you are in the intersection. There were absolutely no other vehicles in or near the intersection and it was daylight without any visibility obstructions. The motorcycle was nearly 500 feet away when you decide to ease across the intersection when you have seen that the cross traffic signal was also red. (By the way, all of this was caught on camera.)

Recklessness and negligent behavior is when you PURPOSELY DISREGARD A THREAT YOU ARE AWARE OF. Since you have no knowledge of a threat posed by that motorcycle, you can't be found to have purposely disregarded it. Well, unless.

That speeding motorcycle is so far away from you that it's clear that it could slow or stop or change its path of travel long before colliding with you. But unknown to you, that motorcycle rider was reading a text message on his cellphone while speeding along at 70 MPH. He doesn't happen to notice that you are crossing the intersection. Some would call that being inattentive or distracted.

As it turns out, that motorcyclist doesn't notice you until 1/2 second before he collides with your vehicle (which is moving at 22 MPH) and makes absolutely no effort to avoid the collision. He's ejected from his bike and soon thereafter dies while laying on the roadway.

Guess who gets charged with MANSLAUGHTER while 'running a red light'?

Oh, did I mention that the motorcyclist who died was an OFF DUTY motorcycle policeman? Think maybe that had something to do with you on your way to do two years in prison?

Just to be clear--I'm not suggesting the police had anything to do with this. I'm 'police family', meaning my father was a homicide detective. I'm saying that a District Attorney and a jury made a bad call.

Riding motorcycles is dangerous - not just for you.
Motorcycle Safety / Trip Reports
66 @ 66
Mikeydude
06/24/2022  11:44 AM
Now- as for the report... We left Ft Worth and it was expected to be HOT. Mid to upper 90s. That was my main concern. We managed to stay just ahead of the heat. It was hot, but not as hot as it was to our south. I made it a point to make lots of stops, and the Camelbaks were a huge benefit. I drank at least 4 liters on the way up. We filled them with ice and they kept a cold spot in the middle of our backs. Not super cooling, but it all helps, right? I was concerned that heat and fatigue would be an issue for me at my age and medical status, but I felt great!

When I mapped out this route I called the gas stations at the planned refueling points to make sure they had Premium gas. I have come across some that only sell regular (83) or mid-grade (89). My scoot calls for at least 92. The word Premium means different things to those people in Oklahoma. They sell non-ethanol gas, and they call that premium. So there were a few times where I had to go hunting for "high octane" gas. Something I didn't think much about til then.

The weather forecasts called for hot and dry along the entire route, but James advised me that he has always gotten rained on, even when it wasn't supposed to. Well it rained over night. A real gully washer. We didn't get a drop on us during the ride, but it rained--- a lot.

As I mentioned, we were riding the Old Road, not the Interstate, and it follows the terrain. It curves and moves with the land where the Interstate just cuts straight through. By the time we left El Reno the 2nd morning - after the massive storm that rained, hailed and even had a tornado - the roads were dry, and it was very cool. Extra shirt cool. As we were tooling along, one long section of the road was over rolling hills. And at the bottom of every one of these hills was a low water crossing. There was so much rain that these crossings had flooded during the night. They were dry enough now except for a layer of that slick gooey red mud. Dangerous stuff. Extremely slippery. So we had to slow way down and be extra careful. It was a non-issue, because of the tactics I've learned here, but it could have been a real disaster. We eventually made it through to more stable terrain and it was all good.

Point is - expect the unexpected.
66 @ 66
Mikeydude
06/23/2022  2:58 PM
Here we go... I started to write a play by play and describe all the events and experiences we had, then I realized that 1) it was too extensive, and 2) this ride was more than about the diners, gas stations and old motels that we saw. As I went through all the pictures we took I realized that Route 66, as a road, is not much different than many of the country/back roads that I ride all the time. Had I not had the label of Route 66, this road was just more of the same scenery I ride for.

But there is one difference. As soon as you get on it - not I-40 but the real Mother Road - there is a feeling that comes over you. It's so hard to explain, but it was almost overwhelming. Somehow the road felt different. There was a history, a story you could feel - not all of it good, but it was the real deal.

On the actual Route itself we rode through the following towns: El Reno, Bridgeport, Hydro, Weatherford, Clinton, Foss, Canute, Elk City, Sayre, Hext, Erick, Texola, Shamrock, Long Dry Creek, McLean, Alanreed, Groom, Panhandle, Amarillo, Bushland, Wildorado, Vega, Adrian, Glen Rio, San Jon, Cedar Hill, Quay and Tucumcari.

A lot of these towns are bypassed by the interstate, so they are remnants. 50-80% boarded up and closed businesses. But there are people still living there - and they are the nicest folks I've come across in a long time. We met one guy - he said he was 95 years old - who said he lived there his entire life. We stood there and talked for a good 20 minutes. He survived the Dust Bowl, and the Great California Migration. He said they farm. That's all - just farm. Farm for food and now wind farms.

Some of these towns are just ghost towns. There's nobody there - just collapsing old buildings, and sign remnants where you could sort of make out this cafe or that gas station. And many old abandoned homes. And an old, tired and worn Route. I couldn't help but wonder if these people left because of the dust, or the Interstate.

On the route we followed I tried to keep us on the old original Route, where it still existed. There's a lot of it still there - and even some areas with the original pavement. Most of the original pavement parts were chopped off by the Interstate crossing it, and it just stopped on one side and continued on the other side. It was challenging to map it and challenging to stay on the old road, but we did it.
Motorcycle Safety / Sharing of Lessons Learned
Minor crash in the twisties...
Eagle Six
06/21/2022  5:00 PM
Too much of a good thing can turn it bad! If we are taking a corner that is flat, open, clear where nothing big enough to trip us up will jump out and going the speed limit in clear weather conditions, there is little risk something bad is going to challenge us.

I have very few of those type corner in the countryside where I ride. Properly performed trail braking provides the extra safety edge in the event something that can harm us does present us with a challenge.

On the street if we are coming into a corner hot and hard brake on the approach and trail off the brakes, we are going to fast. A spirited ride isn't going so fast that we approach the corner hot. If we are in that 5-20 mph over category most of the braking is still done during the approach, but saving that last 10% of braking and smoothly trailing off, keeping the pads in contact will help avoid upsetting the geometry of the bike as we turn in and we are covering the brakes ready in the event we need to slow or stop.

There is nothing wrong about getting all the braking done early and put-putting around a corner. After all, taking a corner too slow is rarely an issue. And, I prefer too slow to those who treat our public road as if they are their private race track!

For me I prefer trail braking. Not on every corner, but most and most of the time my pillion can't even feel me braking. I load the tire before working the tire. Smooth brake on, smooth brake off.
Minor crash in the twisties...
scottrnelson
06/18/2022  7:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JanK

But I also tend to trail brake into turns, which in itself is fine, however, I have an unfortunate habit of releasing the brake too quickly, not smoothly enough, and I can sometimes feel the front end bounce a bit. I was thinking about this habit on the ride that day and thinking that I need to get rid of it and for some time I actively practiced a smooth release of the brake. But, as always with these sorts of "exercises", it's difficult not to slip into old habits.
A lot of riders push trail braking as THE way to ride on a twisty road, but I'm totally against it from a safety point of view. Yes, you need to know how to use the brakes while in a turn, but I consider it to be a bad habit to do it all the time.

My goal is to have all braking done before the turn starts and to get lightly on the throttle as soon as I lean the bike into the turn. We're talking about only enough throttle to keep the top of the chain tight, but not really accelerating until the turn opens up at the end. If I can get lightly on the throttle at the beginning, it means that I've judged the corner speed correctly. If I have to do more braking once the turn starts, I misjudged the corner, but I can still safely slow some more if I need to. I probably needed a full year to change the habit of trail braking to this new technique, but it was worth it.

I made this change to my riding nearly two decades ago after reading various authors, including James Davis (here), David L Hough (Proficient Motorcycling), and Lee Parks (Total Control). If your goal is to be as safe as possible while still enjoying twisty roads, rather than being the fastest bike on the road, you might want to consider changing your cornering technique.
Minor crash in the twisties...
JanK
06/17/2022  1:32 PM
Yes, this was the direction I rode. And yes, I think the front washed out quite early. I remained on the asphalt and fell on my left side. The bike stayed far enough from the guardrail that I could pick it up without dragging it away. It ended up about half way through the corner.

As far as the tires are concerned: I still think that they are not good. I have since replaced them with Metzeller Roadtec 01 SE, which are like night and day.

But since then I realised, after thinking long and hard about the crash, that I was also to blame. Obviously, I outrode the tires that I knew were not very good.

But I also tend to trail brake into turns, which in itself is fine, however, I have an unfortunate habit of releasing the brake too quickly, not smoothly enough, and I can sometimes feel the front end bounce a bit. I was thinking about this habit on the ride that day and thinking that I need to get rid of it and for some time I actively practiced a smooth release of the brake. But, as always with these sorts of "exercises", it's difficult not to slip into old habits.

So what I think also happened is that I let got of the brake too quickly, the forks extended too quickly, pushed the front wheel away and onto the cold shoulder, which caused the front to wash out.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
66 at 66
Mikeydude
06/13/2022  10:56 AM
Yay! We made it back with no incidents to report. It was an incredible trip and there is so much to tell about. I will post the fun details in the Trip Report forum, but for now I just want to send a huge thank you to James for all I've learned from this forum. The safety tips and general common sense things I've gotten over the years here made this such a great adventure.

The worse thing to happen was I lost a turn signal lens somewhere between Tucumcari, New Mexico and Plainview, Texas. I think it enjoyed the area so much that it just decided to stay there... lol. We got rain 3 out of the first 4 days, and not a drop on us (lots of slimey red mud though - very dangerous stuff). We had a couple mornings of riding in the un-expected upper 50s and lower 60s... that was a little cool. And we even survived riding through Crowell, Texas with a temperature of 110 degrees.

New personal safety tip - When it gets really hot like it did in Crowell, I'm sure you've seen the tip about putting your helmet in the ice cooler at the gas station. We did that at most stops - but we also stopped at a gas station that had a walk in beer cooler. We went in there for a while and cooled down really fast!

Thanks James!!!
66 at 66
Eagle Six
06/08/2022  12:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mikeydude

Thanks James... I will.



Rubber Side Down, enjoy the fun, and hope the weather holds for you. Sounds like a great trip!

Best Regards....George
Motorcycle Safety / Sharing of Lessons Learned
Minor crash in the twisties...
Eagle Six
06/08/2022  12:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JanK

Well, this forum has been awfully quiet for some time now. Time to add another report.

I think I got bitten by the Metzeller Z8 tyres that I am looking forward to replacing. The problem with these tires - OEM on BMW R1250R and other similar BMW motorcycles - is that they need to be really hot to work properly. If they are, they're OK and exceed my comfort zone (i.e., I cannot outride them). When colder, they are skittish in corners, the front tends to slide a bit before catching up and the rear definitely needs a bit to settle down. A week ago I rode in rain on a 10C slick alpine road and they were a disaster!

Anyway, yesterday I was riding in the twisties in our local Alps. The weather was fine and sunny, but the temperature was 20C and there was quite a stiff wind. On one stop I noticed that, after 10 minutes of taking a break, drinking some water, enjoying the sights... the tires cooled down enough for it to be noticable - they became skittish in the corners, just as they are when you start riding, only less intensely. But after a few minutes of spirited riding, they started gripping again.

But after the last stop I forgot about that and started riding hard right away. In the first hairpin https://goo.gl/maps/myerECXZc4VXCkic9 the front tire just washed out and I lowsided... The picture in Google Maps is 9 years old and in the meanwhile the road had been repaved with nice, grippy, still black asphalt. There was no gravel or any contamination on the road. The tire just let go... Of course, as I said, I was riding hard, but not harder that all day, including on slicker asphalt.

The motorcycle was OK. The cylinder heads are protected by MachineArt X-Head cover protectors and the paralever is protected by the SW-Motech slider. These were the only two points of contact and the motorcycle is otherwise undamaged.

My Alpinestars TechAir 5 airbag went off and the only really painful spot is where I landed on my left elbow and it must have "penetrated" the air cushion and hurt the ribs (but that hurts quite a bit :(). So, all in all I got off lightly.

After the crash I finished the ride to Kranjska Gora, then climbed over another pass, Wuerzenpass, then rode home on the highway. The additional pass was becasue the "local" Louis store is in Villach and, unfortunately, the Alpinestars airbag (bought from Louis) needs to be checked out by the manufacturer if it goes off, so I left it at the store, where they said that it will not be back before 16th of June.

I'm debating with myself whether to switch to a tethered airbag, where you can simply replace the cartridge. But I'm not sure it would have gone off or gone off early enough, since I remained mostly very near the bike, whereas I remember that the airbag inflating the moment that the bike started skidding from underneath me, so the TechAir will most likely stay.



Jan, Thank You for the report. Good to hear you and the bike incurred little damage. I assume you were riding in the direct of the Google Map view you provided. Would also assume the front washed early in the turn in. So also would assume you avoided contact with the guard rail. Are any of my assumptions correct?

I have no experience with Metzeller tires, but the information you provide about the Z8's should be useful to those considering them.

Best Regards.....George
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
66 at 66
Mikeydude
06/04/2022  8:13 PM
Thanks James... I will.
  Jump To:
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle © Master Strategy Group Go To Top Of Page
  This page was generated in 1.05 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05