All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle

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Motorcycle Safety / Campfire chat
Another story published!
James R. Davis 12/25/2021 2:56 PM	Welcome to the site. It amazes me to realize that people seem to think that titles are so important. Like credentials, titles are specific and ephemeral. I've been a programmer for over 60 years. I've been writing for just as long. I've ridden motorcycles for almost as long. My titles have included: Customer Engineer for IBM Assistant to a Nobel Laureate modeling US Econometrics Owner of a restaurant/lounge Seat on a commodities exchange Product Manager for IBM Vice President for a national Brokerage President for a regional brokerage Certified MSF Instructor Executive-Vice-President-Finance for an Oil & Gas company\ Director for a system integration company Bitcoin Investor Chairman of the board for a software company Which of those is defining of me? I imagine that you meant to say 'awareness' instead of 'conscious'. If so, I agree. Of the dozens of motorcycle related law suits in which I've been asked to opine as to cause, only ONE involved a rider who did not contribute at least one rider error. (Contributing an error is NOT the same as saying caused an accident.)
Another story published!
Andrewler 12/25/2021 11:06 AM	Are you a writer? Or are you a motorcycle safety expert? I have also witnessed many accidents between motorbikes and other vehicles while traveling on the road. I think, it depends on the consciousness of the driver. What do you think?
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
How dangerous are we to ourselves?
colinknoxquv 12/20/2021 4:38 AM	Unfortunately, now you should learn everything by yourself, as we have access to the internet which has answers to all our questions. Nobody wants to tell you all the secrets, it is kind of absurd, especially when that's their responsibility. This is why I always take precautions and look for the information by myself. For example, recently I have found out that I can register my bike in my state database that increases the chances of recovery in case my bike is theft. I have found out about this here https://simplebikeinsurance.com/can...bike-online/
R.I.P. DataDan
TooManyHobbies 11/09/2021 1:52 PM	Dan's work is archived over on the Bay Area Riders Forum: https://bayarearidersforum.com/foru...ay.php?f=107 Most of us don't feel the loss as his family does, but still, the community has lost a passionate and knowledgeable member. Dan took the time to give me the tips I needed to start working with the FARS. Seeing this really made me sad.
R.I.P. DataDan
bachman1961 11/01/2021 7:09 PM	Sad news. Like previous comments, very much got my information and compass heading from trustworthy facts and stats here. Thankful for this site, James and many others that guard against false information. Dan presented reams of stats that were easily read and interpreted making the grim reminders easier to understand. R I P
Motorcycle Safety / Campfire chat
Another story published!
James R. Davis 10/25/2021 6:11 PM	I write and testify mostly about motorcycle incidents involving injury or death. That's what a Motorcycle Safety expert witness does. But that's not all! Sometimes I write fiction, sometimes about economics, and sometimes I write science fiction. In other words, sometimes I need to be Released from Reality! (Okay, that's a shameless plug. My story is titled "Immaculate Misconception".) Check it out and let me know what you think.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
R.I.P. DataDan
Mikeydude 09/12/2021 11:59 AM	Oh wow- His posts were an important contribution to my education. I'm sorry to hear of his passing. My prayers and condolences to his family.
R.I.P. DataDan
onthebeach 09/12/2021 9:18 AM	I am sorry to hear that news. I found his well-researched posts to be informative. I think I would have enjoyed a sit down chat with him. He will be missed. - Dale
R.I.P. DataDan
James R. Davis 09/12/2021 9:04 AM	A valuable contributor wherever he went. We had several in-depth email exchanges where he helped me with data retrievals. R.I.P.
R.I.P. DataDan
Eagle Six 09/12/2021 7:43 AM	quote: Originally posted by scottrnelson I just learned that DataDan passed away August 24. Don't have additional details. He will be missed at all of the motorcycle forums that he participated in. Thank You Scott for the update, sad and I will miss him. Condolences to his family.
R.I.P. DataDan
scottrnelson 09/12/2021 6:32 AM	I just learned that DataDan passed away August 24. Don't have additional details. He will be missed at all of the motorcycle forums that he participated in.
Motorcycle Safety / Campfire chat
What do you like doing other than motorcycling?
bachman1961 07/26/2021 10:49 PM	Great topic ! Fun hearing about other's interests and such. One thing that's been a bit of a mainstay for me since my teen years is a slight interest in creative writing. Not necessarily talent but the selfish act of entertaining myself if nothing or nobody else. I'm not much on archives or saving things other than some email versions but it began as a pen pal thing with a group of kids I met on a summer vacation/cruise ship (girls from the St Louis area) and stayed in touch for quite a time. Just friendly chat and updates and somewhat between girlfriends in my home town. Before long, I was writing to my girlfriend away at college and eventually when the internet / email systems became old news, I loved the instant ability to write, spell check, send etc.... I found reason to stay in touch with friends and family whether they missed me or not. Writing was a good outlet and at times, my stories became bigger than life in fun ways or at least I found ways to laugh at myself and use that as motivation in sharing funny things or staying in touch. Things that "went Brian" put the funny ingredients into just about any day of my life. We all know these things are more about how you tell the story that helps it along or more entertaining. Beyond that and more recent times, family living nearby keep us busy these days with our kids a block away from each other and 2 miles from our house. Both are in the family way, married for years and our grandkids number 4 , all boys with 3 on the one side and 1 on the other. For most of the 28 years we've been in CO, I've kept busy or at least somewhat fitness related on a mtn bike. Adventures and camaraderie keep me interested. A few bumps and bangs in the younger days have schooled me on taming things as I get older and x-ray costs escalate. My wife has an e-bike within the past 16 or 18 months so the bike thing is something we can enjoy together and gives me an excuse and reason to get out 2 or 3 times a week in one way or 'nother. My profession/s and work life have not been terribly interesting but have created some basis for fun writing at times. I have been at a hospital in C Springs for the better part of 20 years , coming up on 21 in August. That was about the start of much of my fun writing, full immersion into learning more and getting handy on internet stuff, websites, shopping and joining forums of interest including this one ! BTW- This better than 20 years thus far has been the midnight shift with weekends as Tues - Weds nights off and has worked pretty well for me in that regard. I do winter ski occasionally and had a wonderful experience for a number of years working with, training and skiing with disabled skiers as a volunteer instructor in a sit-ski adaptive program. Hello to those that remember me and Hi / Welcome to the newer adds !
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Getting a flat while riding
scottrnelson 04/21/2021 9:45 AM	So yesterday I was out on my XR650L riding a little bit of dirt and a lot of paved highway. The road I was on at the time was mostly straight, but with a few bends in it. On the last couple of corners before I realized I had a flat tire, I noticed the tires squirming a bit. Rather than considering that my tire was going flat I was thinking that my tires weren't as good as I had thought they were. But as I slowed to turn into a side road and started leaning into the turn it felt like the rear tire folded over and slid quite a ways. I know that a rear tire sliding an inch or two feels like six or eight inches, but I was a bit concerned until I straightened it up. Yep, tire is flat. I parked the bike off of the road in the dirt and tried to figure out the best way to solve the problem. I started by thinking of who I knew with a truck that was willing to drive 20 miles to come get me, then I realized that I had a spare wheel with a good tire on it sitting in my garage. So I rode 20 miles back home on the back of the other XR650L of the rider I was with. Riding two up on a dual sport for 20 miles isn't what I consider fun. Had my wife take me back, swapped wheels on the side of the road, then rode it back home. That got me to thinking about how many times I've had flat tires out riding. I've had quite a few. Most were reasonably harmless, but I came very close to crashing one of those times. I found a lot of different ways to get it fixed too. Here's a list of what I can remember: Yamaha DT-175 around 1982 - Was out exploring with a friend, rode over a mountain on a dirt road into a different county and ran over a large nail. I had no way to patch a tube or pump up a tire, so I took the rear wheel off, got on the back of the other bike, a DT-400, and rode about five miles into town holding the wheel. We found a tire shop, talked them into patching the tube, I put it back in the tire, then we filled it with air, rode back, stuck it back on the bike and finished the ride. Ducati Monster around 1999 - I had gotten a flat tire on the rear of the Ducati, not while riding, and took the wheel to the local Ducati shop to have it patched. I figured I could get another 1000 miles out of that tire. One week later I was riding on a twisty back road, ran over a board or something with nails in it and punctured it again. The tire picked it up and slammed it into the plastic "hugger" that keeps dirt off of the shock and took a chunk out of that too. There was absolutely nowhere to park an injured motorcycle along that narrow road where I got the flat, so I crept along for nearly a mile on the flat tire before finding enough room to park it off of the road. I flagged down another rider who was passing through, talked him into giving me a ride home, then came back with my truck, loaded it and brought it home. I figured that tire was trying to tell me that it needed to be replaced by getting a second flat. KTM 990 Adv, 2013 - Was riding around town, ran over a razor blade or something, and sliced open my brand new Heidenau rear tire - just 600 miles on it. Noticed it as I was pulling into the parking lot at work. I called the local motorcycle shop where I had bought the tire to see if they had another one and they did. The shop was only about a mile away and I thought I could just ride there on the flat, but they came to get me in a pickup truck and the bike and I went to the shop with them. It was about a 3/4" slice in the tire which possibly could have been fixed with a new tube, but I wouldn't be able to trust it at speed, so I paid the two hundred buck for another new tire. Better safe than sorry, and all that. KTM 990 Adv, a year or so later - Was riding down a canyon road almost directly into the sun, didn't see a large rock in the road, hit it, made it through about two more turns then the front tire was completely flat and the bike didn't want to steer. Got it stopped at the far side of the oncoming lane and was thankful I hadn't gone down. A woman in a car came by about thirty seconds later and offered me a ride the few miles into town. Called a neighbor with a trailer that regularly holds motorcycles, and convinced them to drive 25 miles to come rescue me. Patched it, had another flat a couple of weeks later then replaced that one. KTM 990 Adv, probably six months later - The rear tire on that bike was so stiff that I lost air in the rear and rode it about 40 miles on the highway before realizing what the real problem was. It felt strange, but I though it was the front again. Turned out the rear had no air. It was hard to tell it was "flat" by just pushing on the tire. Finally replaced it. No more flats until yesterday. And now I'm realizing that the tire on the XR that went flat is the same model as all of those KTM flats. I really like that tire on and off road, but I'm beginning to think that they tend to go flat way too often. Anybody else ever get flats while on a ride? If so, how did you handle it?
Riding skills where I'm getting a bit rusty
scottrnelson 04/15/2021 8:53 AM	quote: Originally posted by Eagle Six I feel I get enough experience to keep on my toes throughout the year. However, last year during the summer season I fell into a bad habit of flicking on me turn signal before I had check same travel traffic. A couple times it was bad timing and confused the cage coming up at my rear quarter. It surprised me that it took more effort than I thought to break that habit. Yeah, this is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. Recognize the potential issue, then work on fixing it.
Riding skills where I'm getting a bit rusty
Eagle Six 04/15/2021 8:18 AM	quote: Originally posted by scottrnelson Even though I now live somewhere that gets real winter, I rarely go more than two weeks without doing some kind of ride. Now that we're regularly having days above 45 degrees I'm trying to get out riding at least once a week. So most of my riding skills are staying pretty sharp. Things like judging the speed for upcoming corners, traction available for all sorts of conditions, and most things involved in riding on highways. But today I did something different. I tried to take the back roads to a town up in the mountains and had to turn around when I got up high enough that there was ice on the dirt road. When I came back down I decided to ride through downtown Boise and head away from the mountains. I had a couple of incidents where I could tall I wasn't 100% on top of my game, even though I wasn't really in any danger. The first case was on a divided two-lane road (one lane each way) where I came up to an intersection and realized a little late that I needed to turn left there. Instead of moving into the left turn lane as soon as it opened up, I waited until the car behind me had already zoomed into that lane and was right next to me. Not a big issue, just wait a little and pull in behind them, but I realized that I was unaware that the car was there until I had turned on my left turn signal and went to check my blind spot. I should have known the position of any cars behind me too. This is a case that I rarely encounter, and something I can see that I need to be better at. The second case was on another (undivided) two-lane road where a car was coming downhill from a side street on the right. Normally I don't trust anybody who could possibly invade my space, but I think I was assuming too much that they would stop at their stop sign. I believe the driver was just trying to time it to pull in right behind me as I went by, but it was still going 10-15 mph through that stop sign. And the car was less than one car length away as I went by. I need to pay a bit more attention to ALL cars that could possibly invade my space. So, thinking about your riding, are there some areas like this where your skills might be a bit rusty because you don't encounter them often enough? I'm not going to go into town to "practice" this stuff more, but I'll try to be more aware of the dangers in conditions that I don't normally encounter. Most of my riding is on highways and dirt roads where there are way fewer cars to worry about. Hi Scott, good to here you get out in the cold during the winter. I usually get 1-2 ride a week throughout the winter, but I'm guessing my winters are a bit milder than yours. My bike is designed for pavement with hypersport tires. I live on a dirt road so each time I ride I get a half mile of dirt. I will ride some dirt/gravel roads if they are well graded, usually keeping it 15-20 mph or less. I'm situated in a small town with typical big time traffic at peaks. Do mostly country riding from small town to small town. 1-2 times a month I venture to the big city for business, meet friends, or pickup gear. I did that yesterday for a set of tires. I feel I get enough experience to keep on my toes throughout the year. However, last year during the summer season I fell into a bad habit of flicking on me turn signal before I had check same travel traffic. A couple times it was bad timing and confused the cage coming up at my rear quarter. It surprised me that it took more effort than I thought to break that habit. Any other time I made a bad move it has always been when I let my mind drift. Fortunately it hasn't got me in trouble and probably more embarrassing to me, than the other guy. With age comes a reduction in vision, timing and reaction. So I find myself working a bit harder than I did when I was younger. The one aspect of winter riding that does annoy me is the addition of more layers, heated liners, thicker gloves, neck gaiters, all which restrict my movement somewhat more than summer gear. I tend to slow down a bit when temps fall into the 20's and check my route before venturing off in areas I'm not that familiar with. It's important that we discover and recognize our shortcomings and act to correct them. our safety always starts with us. Good thread you started, Thank You. I always like reading posts that make us stop and think about our own skills and abilities.
Riding skills where I'm getting a bit rusty
joeanderson 04/14/2021 11:41 PM	Is your helmet fits you correctly? Maybe that was the problem? I experience it once. you can try ride With Your visor closed and wear a wind blocker. Joe Amarillo
Wind Updraft
scottrnelson 04/05/2021 9:13 AM	quote: Originally posted by Mikeydude I was hoping someone here had some experience with them. The few people that are regularly on here have bikes that are shaped quite differently, so they're not likely to experience the same issue. I would suggest trying to find a forum with a lot more bikes like yours and ask there. I regularly visit forums specific to my two bikes and I can usually get a quick answer for common issues.
Wind Updraft
Mikeydude 04/04/2021 10:57 AM	The deflectors I've looked at all attach to the triples. Since I have a windshield they wouldn't work. I was hoping someone here had some experience with them. The weird part is that it's only on my right side and not both.
Wind Updraft
Eagle Six 04/01/2021 8:46 AM	Just a thought, I would find some stiff cardboard, some duck tape and experiment. Cut it, shape it, tape it. Test ride. Again, make it larger, smaller, different shape, test ride. When you discover what works you can look for something more permanent to solve the issue. Of course whatever I taped on I would assure it did not interfere with turning lock-to-lock, brake and clutch cables and suspension before test riding.
Wind Updraft
scottrnelson 03/28/2021 5:05 PM	The air has to go past the forks to get to whatever is sending it up to your face. Disrupting the air there could very well solve the problem.
Wind Updraft
Mikeydude 03/28/2021 3:04 PM	My helmet is an HJC. I agree it's a bike issue. I looked at some deflectors online and I don't know if that would solve it. They all attach to the forks or triple tree. I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that that is where it's coming from.
Wind Updraft
scottrnelson 03/28/2021 7:41 AM	That's going to be a bike-specific issue. None of mine have had strange streams of air like that. But both of my current bikes have my face about even with the bars when I'm riding at speed. I'm curious what helmet you use. A Shoei helmet is going to keep the face shield in place with something like that, which is why I like them. I have two AFX dual-sport helmets that could probably have a similar issue, though.
Wind Updraft
Mikeydude 03/27/2021 7:41 PM	I'm not sure if this is the right forum... feel free to move it if needed. I've been dealing with an updraft on my scoot forever but I couldn't really locate it. When I ride at highway speeds (in the wind especially) my face shield will sometimes pop up. I can feel it lifting my helmet. It causes buffeting that rattles my helmet which, in turn, rattles my eye-glasses and screws with my vision a little. And it makes my helmet to helmet headset almost useless with wind noise. I thought is was caused by my windshield at first but it feels like it's coming from below. So today I felt around and located it. I put my left hand on the right side just above waist level and a few inches forward of my belly. It seems to be coming from around the air cleaner area. It blows almost straight up directly into my face. It doesn't seem to be very big - maybe the diameter of a soccer ball - but it has quite a bit of push to it. When I shield it with my hand both the noise and the buffeting are diminished by a lot. Does anyone have any experience with this phenomenon and maybe some solutions? Thanks!
Motorcycle Safety / Campfire chat
My friends and I wrote a book
James R. Davis 03/25/2021 11:45 PM	I hope that you will help me out. I wrote one of the stories in this book called 'The Honest con-man' and am trying to help get the word out about the book to help my fellow writers. In celebration of our tenth anthology, Texas writers of The Final Twist are publishing a huge (500+ pages) of delicious mysteries - favorites hand-selected by the writers. Take a look at CHOSEN BY THE WRITERS: An Anthology of Favorite Texas Mysteries https://www.amazon.com/CHOSEN-WRITE.../B08ZYV573Z/ Perhaps you'll also go to the Final Twist page on Facebook, and like or comment on or share (or all three) the announcement about the book. Here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/The-Final-...543695259490 Thank you so much for helping me and my fellow writers get our stories out.
Motorcycle Safety / Physics and the theoretical
Neutral Steering (fact or fancy?)
James R. Davis 03/17/2021 3:23 PM	Thanks for that meaningful observation. It never ceases to make my day when I learn that messages I posted over a decade ago continue to be read and considered. It's a major reason I continue to pay to keep the site up and available.
Neutral Steering (fact or fancy?)
Beary 03/17/2021 1:27 PM	quote: Originally posted by Niebor LOL, Indeed, Wow! Without getting into an argument over leaning, I can make most sweepers very neutral by merely altering the position of my body. I have heard several people mention the weight of the bike alters the degree of that influence. I'm not sure I buy into that argument either,having owned everything from small dirt bikes to enduros to heavyweight cruisers. Thanks for the wonderful explanation. I need to clear my head and set aside an hour to try and interpret it properly. We most often think and discuss a lean angle as the motorcycle learn angle. But it's really the CG (center of gravity) lean angle. Road Racers lean their bodies to the side of their bikes during turns so they can keep the bike more vertical while maintaining the CG lean angle. They do this to get the most speed out of the tire without loosing control. I imagine that they have to adjust their body placement as the tire wears and heats up. The lean angle of a bike's GC at a specific speed is always the same, but by moving the riders weight, the bike can be positioned at different angles to take advantage of the technology. So, yes, body weight and where it's placed in perspective of the bike has influence. Of course, the more the bike weighs, the less the riders weight can influences the CG.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Riding skills where I'm getting a bit rusty
scottrnelson 03/16/2021 2:52 PM	Even though I now live somewhere that gets real winter, I rarely go more than two weeks without doing some kind of ride. Now that we're regularly having days above 45 degrees I'm trying to get out riding at least once a week. So most of my riding skills are staying pretty sharp. Things like judging the speed for upcoming corners, traction available for all sorts of conditions, and most things involved in riding on highways. But today I did something different. I tried to take the back roads to a town up in the mountains and had to turn around when I got up high enough that there was ice on the dirt road. When I came back down I decided to ride through downtown Boise and head away from the mountains. I had a couple of incidents where I could tall I wasn't 100% on top of my game, even though I wasn't really in any danger. The first case was on a divided two-lane road (one lane each way) where I came up to an intersection and realized a little late that I needed to turn left there. Instead of moving into the left turn lane as soon as it opened up, I waited until the car behind me had already zoomed into that lane and was right next to me. Not a big issue, just wait a little and pull in behind them, but I realized that I was unaware that the car was there until I had turned on my left turn signal and went to check my blind spot. I should have known the position of any cars behind me too. This is a case that I rarely encounter, and something I can see that I need to be better at. The second case was on another (undivided) two-lane road where a car was coming downhill from a side street on the right. Normally I don't trust anybody who could possibly invade my space, but I think I was assuming too much that they would stop at their stop sign. I believe the driver was just trying to time it to pull in right behind me as I went by, but it was still going 10-15 mph through that stop sign. And the car was less than one car length away as I went by. I need to pay a bit more attention to ALL cars that could possibly invade my space. So, thinking about your riding, are there some areas like this where your skills might be a bit rusty because you don't encounter them often enough? I'm not going to go into town to "practice" this stuff more, but I'll try to be more aware of the dangers in conditions that I don't normally encounter. Most of my riding is on highways and dirt roads where there are way fewer cars to worry about.
Bitcoins
scottrnelson 01/05/2021 8:46 PM	quote: Originally posted by James R. Davis Over the past decade bitcoins have thrived in terms of public awareness and experience. Not just because of spectacular price increases, but because the criminal element learned how to use them, nobody could counterfeit them, the mining and blockchain protocols have PROVEN to be secure... On the subject of "criminal element", here is an interesting article in Ars Technica about some malware created from scratch to steal cryptocurrency: https://arstechnica.com/information...-for-a-year/ Personally, I prefer to stick with traditional investments, but I read all I can about BitCoin because I find it interesting from a technical point of view. If you feel like writing more, I'll read it.
US motorcycle crash data 2017 (with updates through 2019)
Eagle Six 01/05/2021 2:17 PM	Thank You Dan, as always Good Stuff
US motorcycle crash data 2017 (with updates through 2019)
DataDan 01/05/2021 1:46 PM	2019 Crash Data Update Just before year-end, NHTSA released the initial version of the 2019 FARS database (Fatality Analysis Reporting System, a complete account of fatal US motor vehicle crashes), the final version of 2018 FARS, and the initial (and probably only) version of the 2019 CRSS database (Crash Report Sampling System, a weighted sample of all US motor vehicle crashes). I am adding to this thread summaries of the 2019 motorcycle data from those sources. Trends I've commented on before in this thread are basically unchanged: Motorcycling popularity in terms of registrations and vehicle-miles traveled is down ever so slightly. Crash and fatality rates are unchanged within the accuracy of estimates. Average age of crash-involved riders is unchanged. However, going only by my daily reading of motorcycle-related news in the general media, I expect that we will see big changes for 2020 when I post my next update a year from now. US MOTORCYCLE CRASHES 2015-2019 ....................................2015......2016......2017......2018......2019.....total ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ motorcycles in all crashes.......102,346...134,290...116,305...109,067...110,531...572,539 median rider age all crashes..........38........38........38........38........38........38 rider drinking all crashes..........5.8%......6.6%......5.6%......6.3%......6.6%......6.2% speed related all crashes..........13.7%.....11.5%.....13.1%.....12.9%.....12.1%.....12.6% motorcycle VMT (millions).........19,606....20,445....20,149....20,076....19,688....99,964 crashes per million VMT..............5.2.......6.6.......5.8.......5.4.......5.6.......5.7 FATAL US MOTORCYCLE CRASHES 2015-2019 ....................................2015......2016......2017......2018......2019.....total ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ motorcycles in fatal crashes.......5,131.....5,467.....5,385.....5,172.....5,114....26,269 motorcyclists killed...............5,029.....5,337.....5,229.....5,038.....5,014....25,647 median rider age fatal crashes........42........42........41........42........41........42 rider drinking fatal crashes.......29.9%.....27.0%.....28.5%.....26.9%.....28.4%.....28.1% speed related fatal crashes........34.5%.....34.5%.....34.0%.....32.7%.....34.5%.....34.0% other-vehicle occupants killed........31........46........38........40........42.......197 non-motorists killed..................40........48........40........47........45.......220 deaths per hundred million VMT......25.7......26.1......26.0......25.1......25.5......25.7 rider crash lethality...............4.6%......3.7%......4.3%......4.3%......4.3%......4.2%
Bitcoins
James R. Davis 01/05/2021 9:54 AM	Five months ago the price of a single bitcoin was $12,000. At the time, the highest price bitcoin had ever reached was $20,000. The market price of bitcoins has risen rather steadily since then. It paused when it reached (again) $20,000. But it kept rising. Five months later the price of a single bitcoin is over $32,000 and has hit and bounced back from over $34,000. Why? It is important for me to say at the beginning of this discussion that I'm NOT an investment advisor and that I'm NOT advocating that you or anybody else invest in bitcoins or any other cryptocurrency!!!! There has always been and will always continue to be substantial risk of loss when investing in anything, and cryptocurrency investment has been enormously volatile in terms of market price. In any event, what follows are my personal opinions, but certainly NOT advice. MATURITY, COMPETITION, RELIABILITY, AWARENESS, USABILITY, REGULATION (or not), INFLATION ... Those are, to most of us, concept words that are suggestive of the knowledge or awareness of their users beyond casual. I'd like to fill in some of our blanks here. Bitcoins were created in 2009. At that time you could buy a single bitcoin for effectively nothing; a few pennies. Who would buy them? Anybody with a computer. Geeks, traders, speculators, people who thought the idea of bitcoins was interesting and maybe a little fun and possibly worth taking a chance on. A typical investment portfolio probably was worth less than $100. There were a few who liked the idea and simply wanted to be a part of its development to see where it would go. Oh, then there were a few who simply bought some and promptly forgot they did so, or lost access to their access keys and forever lost them. Sadly, that means there are lots of people who today would be millionaires or even billionaires if only they could find those keys that they lost. (Not all of us are either investors or traders. We are all, for the most part, some of both. A few years ago I had to pay over $30,000 to pay for a medical procedure to save my life that my insurance would not cover. I did so by liquidating some bitcoin. A few months later I had recovered every bit of that expense via growth in bitcoin price. Had I not sold those bitcoins back then, they would be worth more than $250,000 today - but I would not be alive to enjoy that. That's not exactly a 'lost opportunity'. ) Over the past decade bitcoins have thrived in terms of public awareness and experience. Not just because of spectacular price increases, but because the criminal element learned how to use them, nobody could counterfeit them, the mining and blockchain protocols have PROVEN to be secure, investors (not just traders and speculators) learned that there was serious and compelling reasons to become involved, fiat currencies continued being subject to inflation while bitcoins (not being controlled by governments and having a finite limit in terms of availability) were immune, and market capitalization (the worth of ALL bitcoins) finally exceeded $500 BILLION meaning that investment 'whales' (corporations, funds, and billionaires) could start to get meaningfully involved. Bitcoins have been a thorn to banks. While bitcoins have always been an effective store of value (like gold), they threaten fiat currencies whenever they can effectively be used like cash. Fiat currencies take TIME and EXPENCE to move from owner to owner, especially when those entities are distant (like across borders or oceans). Banks have, until recently, done everything they could to deny cryptocurrency related accounts or services - claiming concern about risks. Thus, crypto-exchanges, for example, had great difficulty in finding banking services. And then there is the IRS. Even today the IRS isn't quite sure if bitcoins are a currency or a commodity. Over the last three years the IRS has generated helpful advisories, and has worked very closely with the government and legal authorities in their efforts to thwart criminal exploitation of cryptocurrencies. Know Your Client (KNC) rules and regulations are strongly mandated and continue to expand as a result. Suddenly, late last year, when the bitcoin market capitalization reached about $500 Billion, institutional investors saw the light and new opportunities. PayPal, for example, with about 350 million customers, is allowing those customers to buy and sell cryptocurrencies. That's an ENORMOUS pool of new 'investors'. Just since November of last year that pool is effectively buying more bitcoins than are being created all by itself. A few hedge funds and corporations have placed multimillion dollar purchases of bitcoins to become part of their asset portfolios as 'inflation hedges'. Enough for now. anybody interested in more?
The annual Christmas Day ride
Eagle Six 12/25/2020 5:50 PM	quote: Originally posted by scottrnelson Thought I would have to give this up after moving to Idaho, but the temperature got up to 40 today, the roads were clear and mostly dry, so I went out for half an hour or so. Gotta keep up the Christmas traditions! Merry Christmas, all of you. This is our tradition as well, unfortunately we missed our Christmas ride today, but we are off on a ride tomorrow! It will most likely be in the low 30's when we leave and up in the mid 50's in the afternoon.
The annual Christmas Day ride
scottrnelson 12/25/2020 2:50 PM	Made it out again for a short Christmas Day ride. My bike's temperature indicator said 37 degrees. If you ride a KTM you'll get an ice warning when it's that cold. Just rode through a few neighborhoods to see which direction the new houses are going, then a few farm roads. Long enough to start worrying about getting frostbite in my fingers, then I came back. One thing I like about riding on Christmas Day is the lack of traffic. It was warm enough to do a real ride last Monday, but it will be sometime in January before it's likely to be warm enough again around here.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
Eagle Six 12/24/2020 10:14 AM	quote: Originally posted by frankenstein34 First post; interesting format. I enjoyed your first post and Welcome to the Forum. My first expierence with ABS was with a 2005 Honda ST1300A, in 2005. First new bike I ever purchased. Shortly after break in I decided I should test the ABS. Using the same road (good traction, good conditions), making repetitive passes. First several threshold stops I was rather impressed with the stopping ability of this somewhat heavy bike, but no ABS. I finally decided to grab a hand full (against all my training) and got the ABS to work, it was scary! I made maybe 8-10 more passes engaging the ABS early and a couple late. Certainly not scientific, but I was not impressed and it took much father to get stopped. quote: Originally posted by frankenstein34My next experience would have been on a 2006 FJR1300; as it was on a Yamaha Canada junket (45 minute ride loop), and raining, there was plenty of opportunity to locate the ABS threshold, but the linked braking meant that individual determination was not possible in the traditional way. The ABS did not intrude especially into the braking performance; quite impressive. My next experience with ABS was similar to yours with a 2007 FJR1300 in around 2016. I didn't really like the bike although it is a good bike, but the ABS linked brake system seem to work better and more predictable than the Honda ST. quote: Originally posted by frankenstein34and consider myself (like 80% of everyone) above-average, while recognizing that I still (58 years-old) make occasional poor decisions I got a chuckle out of this line, as I think it fits many of us. Although I'm now 74 years old, with lots of experience, lots of formal training and and lots of self-training, I reserve the right to be stupid once in a while!! I also had a 2007 Honda VFR800A with linked brakes. It was a cute bike, but I wanted to disconnect the link and ABS. After researching how to do that I decided to sell it and buy my second 2006 Ninja ZX14 and was back to non-ABS, non-linked and I was again in heaven. Recently I purchased another new bike a 2020 Ninja 1000SX with ABS, Kawasaki Intel Anti-Lock, traction control, Botch IMU and Kawasaki Corner Control. Although I have not as yet performed any hard testing of the corner control, the ABS hasn't interfered with my threshold braking and traction control has engaged a few time and very smooth. And, like you, ABS hasn't saved me. Unlike you and others, I do very little off-road/dirt and try to avoid the snow and ice. Thank You for your input.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
James R. Davis 12/24/2020 8:53 AM	Welcome aboard. Your post was filled with good information and it's clear you have great motorcycling experiences. Thanks for sharing.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
frankenstein34 12/24/2020 12:01 AM	First post; interesting format. My comments regard personal experiences with ABS and traction control. First motorcycle experience with traction control would have been on a BMW R1100GS, borrowed from another dealership (I worked in the industry for 34 years, ending in 2011) - I believe that the bike was a '99. Early systems were not especially complex, and pulse rate seemed to be measured in full second intervals. The ABS was appallingly "bad", especially in the wet, and off-road; the good news was that there was an off switch. It FELT like a 20-30% increase in stopping distance could be possible in use, as the system came in early, long before any chance wheel lock would be possible. My next experience would have been on a 2006 FJR1300; as it was on a Yamaha Canada junket (45 minute ride loop), and raining, there was plenty of opportunity to locate the ABS threshold, but the linked braking meant that individual determination was not possible in the traditional way. The ABS did not intrude especially into the braking performance; quite impressive. Next was a purchased 2008 GL1800 (that I still own), again with linked braking. biggest issue would be very poor master cylinder to wheel cylinder ratios, which means that maximum braking is difficult to locate either with or without ABS function - a panic-brake situation on dry pavement with good grip did not engage the ABS, and it's difficult to find in the rain as well (which to my eyes is just fine). A recently purchased MT07 (2018) has ABS which massively gets in the way of effective stopping - I initially presumed that it was due to system parameters (aimed at entry level riders), but riding a friend's H2 (2019)(full compliment of ABS, traction control, corner control with adjustment from nanny-state to supposedly minimal invasiveness) set on #8 (of 12 settings, 12 being least invasive), was able to quickly come up against the traction / wheelie control in a corner (same corner ridden 10 minutes earlier on my 2000 R1 (no electronics package) where no significant effort was being engaged in (public streets, not track-day). Seven corners later, trail-braking into another corner, had the ABS pulse 3-4 times, widening my line into the corner. Not my bike (H2), but would be interested in additional adjustments to the electronics package to determine whether early initiation would be reduced with settings adjustment. My MT07 will be re-wired to allow the ABS to be switched off based on expected conditions. I am an experienced street rider who also races on and off-road + track-days, and consider myself (like 80% of everyone) above-average, while recognizing that I still (58 years-old) make occasional poor decisions at the track. I've looked for up to date data on ABS related to motorcycle crashes, but suspect from conversations (with friends at local training facilities) as well as data located, that ABS is not significantly impacting crash rate positively or negatively. Inexperienced riders seem to crash equally well with or without ABS access, although more data through time now that pretty much everything comes with ABS will be interesting. Final comment regarding ABS on 4 wheel vehicles and the abstract from Data Dan. Unsurprisingly, it seems difficult to locate actual data regarding ABS related crashes in snow/ice/gravel. After nearly colliding with another vehicle in a near new 2001 Toyota Tundra in a situation where one track of the vehicle was on glare ice, and the other track was on dry pavement (common Winter conditions here) and the vehicle ABS simply would not even think of allowing brake use, I permanently disabled the ABS. My recently purchased 19 year newer Chevrolet Colorado has equally poor abilities on ice, which was extremely surprising to me considering the current 4-channel ABS, fortunately the truck I chose allows the ABS/traction control to be turned off. Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but in my personal experience, I've never had ABS "save" me from any situation, and have had ABS rear its ugly head at the most inappropriate times (ice, gravel), nearly causing an incident.
Motorcycle Safety / Campfire chat
What do you like doing other than motorcycling?
Mikeydude 12/17/2020 3:04 PM	I don't do as much these days with age and ailments setting in. I worked for many years as an audio engineer setting up sound systems for concerts and clubs. That became 'no fun' so now I just play the guitar... and I still do graphic art/web design stuff. My biggest battle is fishing. I love to fish and used to go all the time. Problem is, now if the weather is good enough to fish, it's good enough to ride. Guess which one wins out... lol. I'll add that the most rewarding job I've ever had started out as a Drug Abuse counselor. It turned into a R.O.P.E.S. (Remedial Outdoor Progressive Experiential Seminar) facilitator, and ended up as a team building instructor using the Challenge Course. It was a lot of fun, and it was great seeing people change right before your eyes.
What do you like doing other than motorcycling?
Eagle Six 12/10/2020 10:40 AM	Oh, I get to write a bio!! I'll keep it simple... Over the years I have been blessed with an opportunity to perform many jobs and hobbies, these are a few I feel are significant to me: - Photographer, Amateur Videograhper. - Lethal Force Instructor (Handgun, Carbine, Shotgun, Precision Rifle, Edged Weapons, Mountain Survival). - Flight Instructor, SEL, MEL, CFI-I. - Commercial Pilot (Part 135). - Combat Infantryman (Machinegunner, Platoon Sniper, Platoon Sergeant). - High Risk Security/Private Police (Executive Escort, Personal Protection, High Value Security). - Corporate IT Management (World Wide Desktops and Networks).
What do you like doing other than motorcycling?
James R. Davis 12/10/2020 9:20 AM	How about sharing a bit about yourself here so that the others can see that we are not 'simply' motorcyclists? Other than providing expert witness services to attorneys who work motorcycle involved injury/death cases, I spend a great deal of time in the cryptocurrency markets, and a small amount of time doing some creative writing. As to that last ... Cash and I are members of The Final Twist, a group of mystery writers who have published TEN anthologies so far. We just completed our latest one called EVERY BEAST HAS A SECRET, 13 short stories about animals, and each one is a mystery! Take a look at EVERY BEAST HAS A SECRET, ready for pre-order on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Every-Beast-...books&sr=1-1 And though the story I wrote is a mild mystery, it is more properly described as a police K9 procedural and it at least mentions motorcycles. Okay, writing is not as fun as riding, but you can do it in your bathrobe while drinking a scotch. If you would like to help that writer's group out after you've taken a look at the book, you can go to the Final Twist page on Facebook, and like or comment on or share (or all three) the announcement about the book. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/The-Final-...543695259490
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
scottrnelson 12/05/2020 10:34 AM	quote: Originally posted by Eagle Six It wasn't so much the specific comment, as much as, the general attitude from some members that these electronic control system can save a rider from crashes as if they are smarter than any riders ability to be stupid, that concerns me. In other words, ride however you like the bike will save you. This reminds me of MotoGP racing when electronics first started helping the riders. I can't remember what year, but for sure in 2007 when Casey Stoner won the championship on the Ducati (it was an 800cc engine that year). Apparently the younger riders were better able to trust the electronics to do the right thing and they could open the throttle more while leaned over in a corner than the more experienced riders who knew that doing something like that on the older bikes would toss you on your head in a high side crash. So my 2020 KTM has sensors that detect lean angle and the traction control is supposed to prevent you from having too much power cause you to lose traction. But there is no way I'm going to actually test it. My reflexes from decades of riding won't let me.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
Eagle Six 12/04/2020 4:18 PM	quote: Originally posted by DataDan Abstract Numerous crash data statistical analyses conducted over the past few years suggest that, for automobiles, the introduction of four-wheel antilock brake systems (ABS) has produced net safety benefits much lower than originally expected. The studies indicate the apparent increase in single-vehicle crashes involving passenger cars equipped with four-wheel ABS almost completely offsets the safety advantage such vehicles have over their conventionally-braked counterparts. Dan, and/or other members, is this statement your opinion, or would you agree with this statement..... 'Perhaps, because of the advertised perception that ABS is better than most drivers braking skills, some drivers rely on it to save them when they have created a situation beyond any known braking technology or excellent braking skills that would have prevented a crash.' I followed a thread for a while in a well used specific bike forum. The 2020/2021 model years of this specific bike has ABS, Traction Control, Bosch IMU axis and corner control. This thread included statements from rider members such as, 'You can go WOT in a turn and the electronics will save you'. I have paraphrased, but that is the basics of more than one members comments. It wasn't so much the specific comment, as much as, the general attitude from some members that these electronic control system can save a rider from crashes as if they are smarter than any riders ability to be stupid, that concerns me. In other words, ride however you like the bike will save you. The best I can tell, certainly not definitive, most of these type statements come from riders with relatively little experience and skills, as well as, riding systems and riding skills knowledge. Just my personal observation both seeing and reading.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
James R. Davis 12/04/2020 11:34 AM	Thank you for that follow-up review. What is also troubling, of course, is that the report I cited is two decades old and the one you cited is about 15 years old. In those days pulse rates were still too long for optimum performance and there does not seem to be much in the way of contemporary information - particularly for ABS on motorcycles. In any event, in no way was I trying to argue that ABS was NOT a true safety feature - only that relying on technology instead of practiced skills was sometimes dangerous. However, that is exactly what ABS was designed for - enhancing safety for unskilled riders and it does that remarkably well. And, there have been many studies that show that ABS equipped vehicles are demonstrably safer in almost all roadway conditions.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
DataDan 12/04/2020 11:13 AM	Thanks for the link. Here's a summary of that study: A test track study of light vehicle ABS performance over a broad range of surfaces and maneuvers Abstract Numerous crash data statistical analyses conducted over the past few years suggest that, for automobiles, the introduction of four-wheel antilock brake systems (ABS) has produced net safety benefits much lower than originally expected. The studies indicate the apparent increase in single-vehicle crashes involving passenger cars equipped with four-wheel ABS almost completely offsets the safety advantage such vehicles have over their conventionally-braked counterparts. The braking performance of nine high production passenger vehicles was evaluated in eighteen stopping situations. These situations were comprised of various road surfaces, driver steering actions, and vehicle speeds. Testing was performed with lightly and heavily laden vehicles, with the ABS active and disabled, and used two brake pedal application techniques. The selected vehicles included at least one ABS from each of the eight current, major, ABS manufacturers. This study found that for most stopping maneuvers on most surfaces, ABS-assisted full pedal brake application stops were shorter than those made with the ABS disabled. The one systematic exception was on loose gravel where stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2% overall. Additionally, the vehicular stability during testing was almost always superior with the assistance of ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed, ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence. Based on results to date, the authors of this study believe ABS braking performance deficiencies are not responsible for the apparent increase in ABS-equipped, single-vehicle, run-off-the-road crashes. For info, the PDF at Jim's NHTSA link somehow has copy/paste disabled. Text can apparently be copied to the clipboard from Adobe Acrobat Reader, but only gibberish is pasted into another app. Moreover, the PDF is not searchable. CTRL-F brings up the search box, but nothing can be found. To get the abstract above, I found a link to a copy at a non-government website, from which the abstract, but nothing else, is copyable. For some reason, our federal government wants to suppress the information in this study.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
James R. Davis 12/03/2020 10:46 PM	A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 27.2 percent. https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD...FinalRpt.pdf Okay, an average of 27.2% is less than 30%, not more than, though with that average some were higher. So sue me. (grin) By the way, I fully understand the dynamics involved relative to loose gravel but I do not understand them relative to wet/slick roads. Can anybody help with that?
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
DataDan 12/03/2020 10:03 PM	I know of no study that has found a 30% disadvantage for ABS on any surface. The only one I know of that formally compared ABS/non-ABS is one from 2006, A Comparison of Stopping Distance Performance for Motorcycles Equipped with ABS, CBS and Conventional Hydraulic Brake Systems (PDF link is to MSF, but the study was done by US DOT and Transport Canada). Non-professional riders rode motorcycles that either had switchable ABS or were models available with or without ABS. Braking tests were done on wet (from 30mph) and dry pavement (30mph and 80mph). In addition, two conditions of load (full and light) and three conditions of brake use (front only, rear only, and both) were compared. The following table summarizes part of that study, wet (30mph) and dry (80mph) surface, light load, both front and rear brakes. Average deceleration in g with and without ABS, from 80mph (dry pavement) and 30mph (wet) .......................dry....dry.......ABS......wet....wet.......ABS .......................ABS...no ABS..advantage...ABS...no ABS..advantage ..................................................................... Honda VFR800..........0.92....0.91......1.1%....0.72....0.67.....7.5% BMW F650..............0.94....0.84.....11.9%....0.68....0.64.....6.3% BMW R1150R............0.96....0.91......5.5%....0.64....0.70....-8.6% Yamaha FJR1300........0.82....0.97....-15.5%....0.59....0.49....20.4% One one sore thumb is dry performance of the FJR, a 2004 model. Early ABS FJRs had terrible braking performance, which somehow went unremarked upon in the moto media (including MCN). It was well sorted by the time I bought my 2013. As I would hope all motorcyclists know by now, the benefit of ABS isn't improved braking performance--it's a slight disadvantage for the very best riders (of whom I am not one) in favorable situations. Rather, it can prevent overbraking and crashing in an emergency while producing near maximum deceleration
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
Eagle Six 12/03/2020 10:18 AM	quote: Originally posted by James R. DavisIf you have ABS on your bikes, can you turn it off? Do you do so? Technology is great, but relying on it instead of yourself and practice and skills is DUMB. I currently have two bikes, neither of which I can turn ABS off. And I agree 100%, technology does not replace skills rather it supplements our abilities. Skills should be regularly exercised and refined.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
scottrnelson 12/02/2020 10:18 PM	I've had three KTM adventure motorcycles that all had ABS. The 2008 990 Adv definitely did not stop well on loose gravel with ABS enabled, especially when headed downhill. To turn it off you had to be stopped, then press a button near the speedometer. The 2018 1090R and 2020 790R have more advanced ABS that works much better off road. The 1090R behaved differently when set to Off Road mode than Street mode, allowing the rear tire to be locked up if desired. The 790R that I have now appears to leave the ABS in street mode even when the ride mode is set to Off Road, but it still stops very well on loose surfaces. It also has a Rain mode, but I haven't tried that out yet. I haven't really felt the need to switch the ABS to Off Road mode, and I ride a lot of dirt roads. Personally, I expect it to stop better on wet roads with ABS on than without it. But I try very hard to avoid riding in the wet, so I don't know when I'll be able to test it. To switch modes on the newer bikes involves five button pushes with my left thumb followed by closing the throttle for about a second. Then a couple of more button pushes to get back to the default instrument panel setting. It doesn't care if you're moving or not. It's slightly more complicated to turn ABS off, but I've had no reason to want to do that so far. By the way, my goal when riding is to never get to the point where I can feel ABS kicking in. On the 2008 KTM, the rear brake was way too sensitive and I could frequently feel it doing something. It's very rare to feel it on the newer bikes because it works way better. As for traction control, which both newer bikes have, it gets "exercised" much more. A few times I've forgotten to switch from Street to Off Road and then tried passing a truck on a dirt road. The traction control severely limits acceleration on loose stuff. I rarely forget to switch when entering dirt sections, though.
ABS stops you quicker - NOT ALWAYS!
James R. Davis 12/02/2020 7:49 PM	Sure, we all know that having ABS is considered a safety feature and that in many cases ABS can stop a motorcycle in a shorter distance than without it. And, many of us know that a truly braking skilled rider can stop even more quickly than ABS can. But what frustrates me no end is that most of us do not know that there are conditions in which ABS virtually guarantees that a motorcycle using ABS will take more distance (MUCH MORE) to stop than not using ABS. When? On slick wet surfaces or on loose gravel surfaces. ~~Some~~ At least one study shows that using ABS can result in stopping distances more than 30% greater than not having ABS on such surfaces. THIRTY PERCENT!!! If you have ABS on your bikes, can you turn it off? Do you do so? Technology is great, but relying on it instead of yourself and practice and skills is DUMB.
How dangerous are we to ourselves?
Eagle Six 11/13/2020 4:55 PM	quote: Originally posted by James R. Davis Since you asked for my opinion ... Yes I did and I appreciate your response both because I respect your expertise and because I agree with you. quote: Originally posted by James R. DavisI believe the MSF provides lip service to the idea of safety training. They, it seems to me, are a marketing wing of the motorcycle industry hiding behind the exceptionally well crafted (by lobbyists) state requirements for formal (safety oriented) knowledge/skill/safety training to obtain a motorcycle endorsement on driver licenses. Virtually every state has a MOM (Motorcycle Operator Manual) that was crafted by the MSF. If safety was an objective, then why is it that the MSF still refuses to teach their students how to get away from a bike that is falling? How hard is it to teach them to let go of the downside grip, stand on the highside peg, and step away from the bike with the down leg? That should be a REQUIRED element of the first range day for beginner students. Even if that training does not involve actually dropping a bike, a demonstration would go a long way towards diminishing the many instances of dropped bike injuries in their classes. But they don't do that? Why not? Agree, and why is it they make it seem like such a big sin. I really don't remember meeting any rider that has not dropped a bike at least once. I've done it several times over 55 years of riding. When we stress not dropping, and fail to provide instruction how to safely dismount during a tip over, students are more likely to strain to save it beyond the point of no return, and risk severe injury. It would not cost much to rig up a demo bike for this training, and if not that, as you state at least have an instructor demonstrate the technique. In only a few more minutes they can demonstrate how to safely pick up a downed bike. quote: Originally posted by James R. DavisYour concerns about wide turns is shared by me. Truthfully, I think most of those incidents are the result of a disbelief in countersteering. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard accident victims claim that they steer by leaning and that for some reason the bike was fighting them before they ran off the road. Agree. In the most recent training I attended, and I respect this school for leading the industry in teaching braking techniques, in my opinion they should spend far more time training countersteering. Many of the riders I have rode with, new and experienced, have a lack of understanding how far their bike will lean and remain planted. They lack counter weighting skills but still feel their body weight is the way to steer their motorcycles. Counter weighing (hanging off) is a skill and has a place, sometimes on the street if used conservatively, more extreme on the track, but it supplements countersteering effort and never replaces countersteering principles. The most recent MSF course I attended 3 years ago (it was either an intermediate or advanced parking lot course) they gave lip service to countersteering, but very little instruction or drills. After the swerving drill and instructor asked us if swerving can be done at highway speeds. I answer yes. Nope, absolutely not, according to the instructor. My take away for those new riders was, so if they cannot get stopped, don't swerve to avoid just crash into what ever it is! You most certainly can swerve at highway speeds, we do it all the time changing lanes. We cannot swerve to the extent that we can at slower speeds, but it may be very valuable to avoid trash or debris in our path. I'm also amazed at how many riders don't understand that braking in a corner, with proper training, is not a big sin. It can actually be a life saver. Those are some of my thoughts and would be interested in other opinions either in agreement and opposed, perhaps I'm wrong.
How dangerous are we to ourselves?
James R. Davis 11/13/2020 1:01 PM	Since you asked for my opinion ... I believe the MSF provides lip service to the idea of safety training. They, it seems to me, are a marketing wing of the motorcycle industry hiding behind the exceptionally well crafted (by lobbyists) state requirements for formal (safety oriented) knowledge/skill/safety training to obtain a motorcycle endorsement on driver licenses. Virtually every state has a MOM (Motorcycle Operator Manual) that was crafted by the MSF. If safety was an objective, then why is it that the MSF still refuses to teach their students how to get away from a bike that is falling? How hard is it to teach them to let go of the downside grip, stand on the highside peg, and step away from the bike with the down leg? That should be a REQUIRED element of the first range day for beginner students. Even if that training does not involve actually dropping a bike, a demonstration would go a long way towards diminishing the many instances of dropped bike injuries in their classes. But they don't do that? Why not? Your concerns about wide turns is shared by me. Truthfully, I think most of those incidents are the result of a disbelief in countersteering. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard accident victims claim that they steer by leaning and that for some reason the bike was fighting them before they ran off the road.

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