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Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
Connected motorcycles
Thom Thumb
08/28/2020  9:22 PM
One can always stay with a pre-connected motorcycle.

Which is not to say I like electronic tethering. Considering this is a 'free country', there's an awful lot of interference from an awful lot of sources, huh?
Connected motorcycles
Eagle Six
08/11/2020  10:14 AM
When everything is connected and tethered (motorcycles, cars, truck, plane, boats, and trains), they will mandate non-compliant vehicles be removed. Not in my life time, but something my children and grand children will probably face off with.....unless something in our society happens to prevent it!
Connected motorcycles
James R. Davis
08/11/2020  7:45 AM
Motorcycle manufacturers are talking incessantly about 'connected' and 'tethered' motorcycles that they are contemplating bring to market. Yet those of us who are riders seem unaware of what all the hype is about.

Here is a list of manufacturers who are planning to impact future motorcycle developments in a major way:

BMW AG (ETR: BMW)
Autotalks Ltd.
KPIT (NSE: KPITTECH)
Panasonic Corporation (TYO: 6752)
TE Connectivity (NYSE: TEL)
Robert Bosch GmbH
Starcom Systems (LON: STAR)

So let's start learning about what they are talking about.

A 'connected' motorcycle is wi-fi (some of you know about IoT) connected to another device other than itself. For example, the electronics on a connected motorcycle automatically and without human intervention passes on to your dealership's service system information such as gas mileage, miles traveled, GPS location information, SPEED information, and more.

In other words, say a police department wants to know where (and when) your motorcycle was the night of a hit and run located in the town next to you? Or if they want to know if it was moving in excess of 90 MPH - ever? And how long do you think it will be before those service systems will provide an AUTOMATIC update of police systems, without subpoena or judicial order?

Another bit of connected motorcycle information is your health. Right, systems are being developed to monitor your heart rate and blood pressure. Could those sensors determine your blood/alcohol content as well?

Something we've talked about before ... SELF DRIVING motorcycles (ala BMW AG). Well, at lease 'automatic driver assistance' capability. All in the name of driver safety, of course.

And what about 'tethered' motorcycles? What that means is the rider is more 'connected' with the motorcycle. 'Back supports', 'neck supports', even 'helmet supports' are being planned with electronic monitoring built-in. Right. It is entirely possible that with tethered systems the police are able to determine not only information about your motorcycle, but about WHO was driving it?

I know this article sounds like pure conspiracy crap. It's not. The plans are far along and we are already seeing some of it in the market place.

What happens if some authoritarian decides that no vehicles should be allowed to move faster than 65 MPH? Think you would be able to fight that mandate if that authority simply dialed in a limit on your motorcycle? Or how about a hacker who mischievously decides that all motorcycles near him need to make a left turn NOW? I'm probably just over thinking this, right?

Remember when riding was a way to get away from the rest of the world?
Bitcoins
James R. Davis
08/03/2020  6:31 AM
Very interesting question.

For those of you who wonder what that's all about ...

Since cryptocurrencies have been around the way those coins have been created is through mining where computers around the world run very challenging algorithms in an attempt to solve a problem which when solved rewards the solving system with some number of the newly minted coins. Miners also provided the necessary infrastructure that managed their blockchains.

So much computer power has been devoted to mining that the electricity used by those computers has become a meaningful percentage of all electricity generated -- and, of course, it is expensive. Over time the algorithms have gotten so difficult to solve (by design), and cutbacks in the number of coins awarded, that for many (most) people it is no longer profitable to mine unless you are a large corporation that manufactures cryptomining equipment and have made special deals with electricity providers. That results in concentrating ownership and the ability to 'control' (via voting) the future of those currencies.

The solution is to get away from mining (called proof of work) and replacing it with proof of Stake (ownership).

Anyway, proof of stake generates new coins by awarding a certain percentage (essentially interest) to those owners who hold (and do not trade) their coins.

The second generation of Ethereum (ETH) creates new coins via proof of stake (staking) instead of proof of work (mining).

ETH is easily the second most viable crypto currencies after bitcoins. Huge market, very strong trading and investment community, excellent price growth history, and its blockchain has proven to be very secure. Of the hundreds of different cryptocurrencies, MANY of them are actually subsets (well, exist as creations under ETH using its blockchain).

If Bitcoin (BTC) provided a staking option, I would certainly consider using it as I'm more of an investor than a trader. But I'm conflicted as to wanting to stake ETH. That, largely because when I earn interest on cryptocoins it is because margin traders have borrowed those coins to sell them only to buy them back at hoped for lower prices. In other words, cryptointerest 'feels like' (to me) a very weak hedge against prices going down where very savvy traders are betting against me. (I think interest is a viable hedge only with stable assets. What good is earning, say, 6% PER YEAR when an asset can lose 5% PER DAY in value?)

Additionally, when I trade I expect to earn (or lose) more than interest rates by doing so.

So, long answer, I know, but I will 'stand by' and 'watch' the staking effort with ETH rather than commit at this time. I like ETH as both an investment and trading vehicle. For the time being I'd like to continue buying/selling based on market risks rather than tie up funds with staking, but that could change. I mean, if the interest rate (staking payoff) is large enough, I could be persuaded. And, I earned money mining when it was profitable. Staking MAY be another way.
Bitcoins
JanK
08/03/2020  2:46 AM
Will you be staking on the ETH 2.0 net? I'm considering giving it a try.
Bitcoins
James R. Davis
08/02/2020  9:16 AM
Yesterday the bitcoin market was amazing to watch.

The price for 1 bitcoin reached $12,000 after a steady growth for about a month from just over $10,000. Then, at about midnight, the price fell $1,000 in just over ten minutes and reached $11,040 with about $50,000,000 of transactions.

Of course there was a lot of profit taking to account for that drop. But a huge number of margin traders didn't believe it. So they scrambled to buy more and more of it as it fell in price.

How do I know that? Well, the current interest rate being paid to borrow USD to buy bitcoin has been slightly more than 0.06% per day, until the price for bitcoin fell. For a period of almost half an hour the DAILY borrowing interest rate rose to 7%. That's 7% PER DAY, not APR. 7% per day is over 2,550% APR!!!!

Today the price of bitcoins is $11,100 and the daily borrowing interest rate is back to 0.06%.

Amazing swings to watch.
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
scottrnelson
08/01/2020  3:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Anybody want to toss in their opinion? or experiences? I'd sure appreiate it.

My main concern when riding is being visible to those that I'm approaching. The car at the side of the road that is about to pull out into my path or the oncoming car about to make a left turn across my path. I don't think loud pipes do much at all to help you get noticed by them. For riders in California that are splitting lanes in freeway traffic, they likely help people know you're coming from behind when they're looking to make a lane change into you, assuming they don't have their stereo up too loud.

When I'm stuck behind a group of straight pipe Harleys out in the country, especially when driving my convertible with the top down, it's totally annoying.

One reason that all of my helmets are bright colors is to help me be more visible to people that I'm approaching. I really have to wonder about the guy on a Goldwing or big adventure bike with the fluorescent yellow jacket but a black helmet. Because of the size of the fairings on those bikes, all you can see from in front is the helmet and their headlight. The jacket doesn't help much at all. Yes, they help people coming up behind you to see, but I consider that a very small percentage of the total risks from other traffic out there.
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
Eagle Six
07/31/2020  4:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis


Anybody want to toss in their opinion? or experiences? I'd sure appreiate it.



Oh, I'm just full of opinion!!

I really like those well tuned pipes that sound like the bike is going fast when the bike is actually going fast. The exhaust that is almost silent when leaving or arriving in the neighbor at surface street speed which do not piss off the neighbors or friends, but when out in the canyons at high rpm sound something like a MotoGP bike cutting down the straight away!

Harley type of straight pipes, I'm not a fan. Obnoxious sport bike slip-ons that rattle my teeth going from block to block, I'm not a fan.

Are their some occurrences when a cage driver heard loud pipes coming and didn't run over the rider....probably, but where is the proof the loud pipes actually saved the day? I have heard a lot of claims, but haven't heard/seen any logical firm evidence.

I have Two Brother slip-ons on my ZX14r. They are quiet going through the neighborhood putting at 15 mph, and have a rasper when on the street. Louder than stock, but not real loud. They were on the bike by the previous owner. My wife likes them, I'm just OK with them. It certainly doesn't bother me to spend the money to replace them.

My other bike 2020 Ninja 1000SX still has the factory exhaust. A bit throaty when getting into the torque, but relatively quiet and I like it. Quiet in the neighborhood, quiet in traffic and quiet at highway speeds. I can hear the engine, but not an annoying blast from the exhaust.

I think rather than spend money or make modifications to the exhaust, if all that is wanted is be be heard for safety (as in loud pipes save lives), a better investment would be to add extra lights and color so one could be seen.

Hearing may help, but from what direction or where is the noise coming from. If other drivers/riders can see you, then the noise isn't necessary. Maybe a combination of lights, color, and noise is a better bet!

So I am also undecided, with the exception that I really don't like the obnoxious and irritating raw straight pipe that most often happens to be on a Harley or metric v-twin Harley wannabe.

Oh, disclaimer, I really like the sound of a straight piped Harley sitting there idling making that potato-potato-potato sound just on the edge of stalling out, which all gets ruined for me the moment the rider twist the throttle and blast my ears!!
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
James R. Davis
07/31/2020  2:08 PM
What probably does not surprise most of you is that I'm frequently asked to opine on the subject of conspicuity. (Not just being seen but also being able to see.)

What has never been asked of me, however, is if I thought loud pipes are in any way potentially life saving. If asked, I'd readily admit that they are obnoxious and irritating to most people, but I've not yet formed an opinion about them being potentially life saving in nature.

Anybody want to toss in their opinion? or experiences? I'd sure appreiate it.
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
Eagle Six
07/30/2020  4:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jlewisp

Just wanting to change things up a bit, so keep the I need a new bike at bay.


It's your money, $2000 for a new exhaust system or $20,000 for a new bike. Invest 10% to save 90%, that might be a good deal if it works.

For me, if I buy a bike to race, I most likely going to pure a bunch of money into exhaust, reflash, tires, suspension, brakes, etc. to get the most out of my core investment. If I buy a long distance tourer, I would probably be putting a bunch of stuff maybe like extra fuel cells, heated everything, larger wind screen, etc. to make it the most comfortable and capable ride for cross country touring.

What I did recently buy was a 2020 Ninja 1000SX Sport-Touring liter bike. I have about 2,500 miles on it and there is nothing I need for it (with the exception of a gel rear seat, because my wife insist). The factory exhaust will stay as is. The bike is everything I had planned it to be and I want to see how long a factory bike for $11,500 will suite me. In the past I was always hot for the latest gizmo farkle and that included full exhaust and a reflash. Now days I'm leaning for stock and sink the money into skills training.

But, that's just me, I wish you well with your quest, although getting a new bike is always better than a new exhaust, at least for me!!
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
jlewisp
07/30/2020  8:15 AM
Just wanting to change things up a bit, so keep the I need a new bike at bay. It's the one thing I wish I had done when I first bought the bike. A little louder is ok, a few more horses is good, and they say the ecu update make's it even more responsive.
Motorcycle Safety / Physics and the theoretical
Neutral Steering (fact or fancy?)
Oggiedoggy
07/30/2020  1:19 AM
Thank you.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
I need some help with an explanation
Eagle Six
07/29/2020  11:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JanK

The way that hands-off steering works on my motorcycle is that I lean the body into the (let's say left) turn then press with the left foot on the footpeg and simultaneously press with the right knee into the tank. To be honest, I'm still not clear about the physics behind this technique, but it can be surprisingly effective.

Here's a video https://youtu.be/jtyuT-vYQhA of hands-off slalom between cones set 9 metres apart (as described in section 3.1.2.4. on page 7 of https://www.uradni-list.si/files/RS...007-0000.PDF. The speed was around 30km/h, but I could not make a turn around each cone, so the slalom was around cones effectively set 18 metres apart.

I also tried taking a corner at https://www.google.com/maps/@46.026...ata=!3m1!1e3. The video is at https://youtu.be/mgF4uPxH7-4. The second turn at https://www.google.com/maps/@46.025...ata=!3m1!1e3 was too sharp and I could not make it without using the handlebar.



It's good that you took your time to video and post the findings. Your results are not surprising, that is about what I can do on my motorcycle, which is far from controlled through the cones or adequate for street riding.
I need some help with an explanation
JanK
07/29/2020  10:46 AM
The way that hands-off steering works on my motorcycle is that I lean the body into the (let's say left) turn then press with the left foot on the footpeg and simultaneously press with the right knee into the tank. To be honest, I'm still not clear about the physics behind this technique, but it can be surprisingly effective.

Here's a video https://youtu.be/jtyuT-vYQhA of hands-off slalom between cones set 9 metres apart (as described in section 3.1.2.4. on page 7 of https://www.uradni-list.si/files/RS...007-0000.PDF. The speed was around 30km/h, but I could not make a turn around each cone, so the slalom was around cones effectively set 18 metres apart.

I also tried taking a corner at https://www.google.com/maps/@46.026...ata=!3m1!1e3. The video is at https://youtu.be/mgF4uPxH7-4. The second turn at https://www.google.com/maps/@46.025...ata=!3m1!1e3 was too sharp and I could not make it without using the handlebar.
Motorcycle Safety / Contrary Opinions
Questions RE: Tip 233: Slow-Speed Countersteering? Yes!
JanK
07/29/2020  10:12 AM
After wrecking my previous motorcycle (see the writeup in https://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/...PIC_ID=15239), using my partners motorcycle for some time, then getting another motorcycle, a BMW R1200R and practicing a lot, I can now conclusively say that low-speed countersteering absolutely exists and works.

Check out https://youtu.be/ugLSTMq7nvU The 360 degree turn was done around a cone set in the area for a figure 8 defined in section 3.1.2.3. on page 7 of https://www.uradni-list.si/files/RS...07-0000.PDF, i.e., within 7 metres width, with lots of room to spare, so it was a turn with around 6 metres radius.

The left turn was initiated by pushing the left handle forward and the handlebars more or less immediately turned to the left. The forward pressure was let off to allow the handlebar to turn to the left and then increased to control the turn. Although the left handle is not visible, at no time in the turn itself was there any pull on the left handle, since I only pressed with the heel of the hand. The right handle is visible and there was no pressure on it.

The sequence of forces and actions is precisely the same as for the countersteering at high speeds.
Motorcycle Safety / Physics and the theoretical
Neutral Steering (fact or fancy?)
JanK
07/29/2020  7:00 AM
The torque on the handlebar that is necessary to maintain steady-state is irrelevant when considering this. In order to transition from a turn to a straight line, the front wheel needs to be countersteered towards the inside of the turn.

So, if you're pushing on the inner handle, you need to decrease the pressure, if you're pushing on the outer handle, you need to increase the pressure.
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
scottrnelson
07/27/2020  8:21 PM
The last time I weighed a set of Ducati pipes, the carbon fiber Ducati Performance pipes were nine pounds less than the stock ones - 10.5 pounds vs 19.5 pounds.

After market pipes on a Ducati are to let the wonderful sounds out. But the various ones that I had were always too loud. I had Ducati Performance, D&D, and Fast by Ferracci pipes. I ended up modifying stock pipes on both the Monster and ST2 that I rode back then. The stock pipes sent the sound through three different chambers, going from the first to the third, then back the the middle and out a single tube. Removing a few internal pipes changed it so that the exhaust only went through two chambers. Not nearly as loud as the typical aftermarket pipes, but a little louder than stock. I have no idea what the inside of a Multistrada pipe looks like, but I doubt it's like the cans from the mid-90's.

The issue I had with the loud ones was that even with earplugs, the extra sound caused fatigue on longer rides. I don't know if the Harley riders have that issue or not. My XR650L has an aftermarket pipe, but it's not that loud until I get past half throttle. The pipe is worth about a 10% power improvement. I'm not touching the KTM.

So, jlewisp, what is the main reason you're considering an aftermarket exhaust?
I need some help with an explanation
Eagle Six
07/27/2020  6:19 PM
Also, the MSF and the state test stress if you drop the bike you fail, so students attempt to save it!

Pretty much there are those of us who have, those who will, and a few of us like me, that will again, drop a bike. Get of without injury and it a valuable lesson you can laugh at. Get off with an injury and it's a lesson we can dry over.

I agree, it just doesn't make any sense to down grade a rider for dropping their bike, nor teach them safely how to dismount and let it go!
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
Eagle Six
07/27/2020  3:36 PM
Hi Lewis,

I like some after market exhaust and also like some factory exhaust. It's pretty common for many riders to change some or all of the factory exhaust.

I like having a reason, so without your reason for changing things it may be pointless to give an opinion. Perhaps you can expand a bit on why you would consider spending the money for changes?

Perhaps you want a slip on to save a little weight and/or get a better sound. Perhaps you want to swicth to a full exhaust system to eliminate the cat and pickup some hp. there is probably some end goal you have considered? Having an idea of your goals I'm sure you will get more meaningful replies.
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 bike
jlewisp
07/27/2020  2:20 PM
I'm thinking of adding aftermarket exhaust to 2012 Multistrada with 50k miles, good idea/bad idea?
I need some help with an explanation
James R. Davis
07/27/2020  12:01 PM
LOL - I've been saying that for DECADES!

I mean that the MSF has known for decades that the most frequent and predictable range injury occurs when students drop their bikes. Legs, knees, elbows and shoulders. Yet they REFUSE to teach students how to dismount a falling bike!

(Stand on the high peg, LET GO of the low grip, and step away from the bike. How tough is that?)
I need some help with an explanation
Eagle Six
07/27/2020  11:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

And coming out of that turn remains a mystery to me as is anybody's ability to turn in anything but a slight manner. Maybe I'm just thinking of the 'thoughtless ease' I had with my bicycle and can't quite get my head around avoiding the very simple effort of countersteering. Further, I can't remember ever even trying (or having heard of) countersteering during my bicycling days.



I remember once viewing a Youtube video of a rider, on I think it was a Harley sportster, with no hands on the bars and weight shifting through turns. The road was down hill and each turn had a healthy positive camber (which aided turning without much lean). He was doing it staying in his lane, but his lines were terrible and his body shifting was extreme.

I don't remember exactly when I first heard the term counter steering, but it was a long, long time ago and I do remember saying, yea that's what I do and thought counter steering was a silly term for it, because I thought of it as normal steering!!

We know the rake and trail of normal motorcycle design creates a geometry that is both stable in a straight line and easy to turn. The less rake/trail the more it wants to induce counter steering to aid in leaning the motorcycle for turning anytime the motorcycle gets even a slight amount off straight up and down. That makes steering easy with little effort and many riders still believe it is them making the motorcycle turn by loading weight on the pegs! That along with, at speed it takes very little movement of the bars to induce lean, so it is not very noticeable.

Despite we have more basic riding training available in all states now, there are still many riders graduating from these classes that have a very minimum to no understanding of counter steering! It's covered, but in my opinion not enough that new riders can use it for the safety of their riding, like running off the road in turns. That to me is sad that the industry that gains the most from creating safe riders is doing only the minimum. This is my opinion and I'm sure others may disagree.
I need some help with an explanation
scottrnelson
07/27/2020  9:58 AM
Now that I've read all of the posts...

I would be tempted to get on one of my mountain bikes and experiment, but both of them are unstable with my hands off of the bars. I could ride no hands on all of the previous bikes I've owned, but not on either of these two.

I can remember as a kid riding a tandem bicycle alone from the back seat for several blocks in front of my house. I'm sure I had to reach forward to stop or turn it around, but I had enough control to keep it where I wanted on the road. That would have been accomplished by body motions only.

As for body steering on dirt bikes, I ride on dirt roads at least once a week currently on my two bikes. When I get in a sandy section where steering doesn't do much, I'll stand up and influence the path of the motorcycle by leaning it using the grip of my knees on the tank. That allows me to alter the path by about six inches more than just steering would allow me to do. This is while going 20-30 mph. The front wheel otherwise just slides when trying to steer much at all in deep sand or silt. Standing up and leaning the bike one way or the other also helps on rough rocky sections. It definitely still needs counter steering, but moving the body around helps quite a bit.
I need some help with an explanation
scottrnelson
07/27/2020  9:35 AM
More than 100 years ago Wilbur Wright wrote a paper about bicycle steering and used the term "out-tracking" rather than counter steering. It's roughly the same thing except that when I think of it that way it remains consistent in my head at all speeds, super slow to fast.

As for the lean to turn idea, one of the motorcycle track instructors who has written a book on the subject, Keith Code, or Lee Parks, or one of those, had a motorcycle with two sets of bars. The normal bars and a set that has another throttle, but was fixed and not connected in any way to the steering. He used it to prove to those who felt that they could steer just by leaning and weighting foot pegs that they needed counter steer inputs on the bars too. I've talked to a guy who could kind of steer the thing, but he said that it took big body motions to get it to turn much at all.

Just found an article on the subject, not going to toss out what I've written, though. It's Keith Code's No BS Bike (No Body Steer). Here's an article about it: https://soundrider.com/archive/safe...obsbike.aspx
I need some help with an explanation
James R. Davis
07/26/2020  5:52 PM
"It is a lot easier to body shift a motorcycle (although not very effective) into a turn, than it is to body shift out of that same turn."

Thanks. I agree with all that you said. I can visualize a body lean that causes a very slight outracking of the front wheel and thus starting a countersteer. My problem comes with trying to visualize how body lean can compare to the ENORMOUS lean dynamic that instantly begins as the motorcycle starts a turn. My sense is that from that point forward the rider is just that - along for the ride.

And coming out of that turn remains a mystery to me as is anybody's ability to turn in anything but a slight manner. Maybe I'm just thinking of the 'thoughtless ease' I had with my bicycle and can't quite get my head around avoiding the very simple effort of countersteering. Further, I can't remember ever even trying (or having heard of) countersteering during my bicycling days.
I need some help with an explanation
Eagle Six
07/26/2020  5:28 PM
We know that regardless of how the lean is initiated, the lean is what allows the bicycle and motorcycle to turn (motorcycles lean much more than bicycles, but bicycles are normally ridden at slower speeds). To initiate the turn we can do that by the force of counter steering or by weight shifting (which instigates counter steering). The force of counter steering is deliberate, smooth, and precise, as well as the counter steer to recover from a lean/turn.

Weight shifting is only as effective as the weight difference ratio between the load on the bicycle/motorcycle and the weight of the bicycle/motorcycle. So, the heavier the rider and the lighter the motorcycle, the more effective is weight shifting. The weight of a rider as compared to a bicycle is considerably more than that in comparison to most motorcycles, so it is reasonable we would be able to steer a bicycle easier and more effective by shifting out weight. Also the bicycle is normally traveling at slower speed, so there is more time to adjust for the turn in the road for more turn precision.

I'm 150# geared, and with that weight it is easy for me to shift my weight on a 20# bicycle to throw the weight off axis and initiate a turn, which also induces counter steering to go around a common sweeper at 20 mph.

That same sweeper would be marked 55 mph. My motorcycle weighs in at 540 pounds. Unlike me being heavier than my bicycle, I'm far lighter than my motorcycle and I can hang off as far as possible and get it to start a turn, but not enough turn to negotiate a sweeper and keep my speed at 55 mph. So the motorcycle will turn but I will run off as my the turn radius is not enough to equal that of the sweeper.

The No B.S. motorcycle designed by Keith Code and used at the California Superbike School provide a good example of the limited use of weight shift steering/body shifting and there is a very good video on Youtube showing a demonstration.

We also know that dirt bike riders used weight shifting to a greater effect than street bikes. One the tire contact has less traction so it can be effective more by shifting weight and brute force of the rider, and by comparison to my street bike a dirt bikes comes in around 250#. This supports the issue that weight shifting/body shifting steering if more effective the lighter the motorcycle.

Not sure is this is what you want because I know you know all this, and I know you can put it in a better argument than I, as well as, work out the weight ratio math for comparison.

Although I don't have any proof, I would make two additional arguments.

1. If we setup a video camera to record a bicyclist oncoming, hands off the bars, and body shift to steer (thereby missing the camera), when the video was put into slow motion a counter steer would be detected.

2. It is a lot easier to body shift a motorcycle (although not very effective) into a turn, than it is to body shift out of that same turn.

I would make one more argument.....the average motorcyclist could not explain the dynamics, differences, and/or effectiveness between counter steering and weight/body shifting. Not that this would have anything to do with the explanation you are preparing for the attorney.
I need some help with an explanation
James R. Davis
07/26/2020  4:15 PM
I haven't ridden a bicycle in over 20 years. On the other hand I was a newspaper delivery boy 60+ years ago and I rode bicycles proficiently.

Where is this going? Well, I recently had another of those chats with a defense attorney who knew nothing about motorcycles and who needed to understand why his client could not successfully manage a large sweeping left turn and nearly died after running into the guardrail. Yep, a lesson about counter-steering was provided.

He almost bought it, but then said that he rides bicycles and can CERTAINLY steer simply by leaning - no hands needed. I confirmed that I had done the same, but that I could not do so with a motorcycle if I was travelling at anywhere near 10 MPH.

Here's the thing, I've HEARD OF motorcyclists who CAN steer by leaning - no hands - at speeds above 10 MPH, though I've never actually seen them do it.

Can somebody please explain to me how that's possible?
Bitcoins
James R. Davis
07/07/2020  9:45 AM
Well, the Bitcoin halving has occurred and the anticipated substantial rise in price as a result was only modest.

The price today is about $9,300 and very slowly rising.

The most interesting news that I'm aware of is that PayPal is preparing to allow Bitcoin as a currency they support. That would enable over 350 million people to have instant access to bitcoin and would be, by far, the most important reason for substantial price gains thereafter.

What is curious to me is why PayPal would do this as there is every reason to think that by adding Bitcoin, they essentially destroy their bread and butter business.

Anybody want to suggest their reasoning?
Speaking of electronics
scottrnelson
07/04/2020  9:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Six

As I'm glancing back and forth to the rear view side mirrors I notice the center display has turned to a high definition rear view that I can actually see bright and clear what is behind. In that thing it was a welcome drivers aid.
All new cars have the backup camera now. Some are better than others. The one in my 2014 Ford has some straight lines that show the width of the vehicle, but if you turn the wheel it has some other lines that show where you'll go at that angle. It makes it extremely easy to back into a parking spot and get it centered.

The drawback is that it's easy to get in the habit of not looking behind you, so you can miss people or traffic in parking lots coming from the side. The rear camera is one of the few things that I like on the newer cars.
Speaking of electronics
Eagle Six
07/04/2020  8:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Obviously some of us are 'old salts' who appreciate the classical functionality of our cars and motorcycles and think that at least some of the current enhancements are bastardizations.


quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

On the other hand, rear-view cameras that come on when in reverse (on automobiles) seems like a very good idea.


This past December I was in Apache Junction, Arizona attending a Kawasaki Good Time Roll Demo event at Arizona Kawasaki. I specifically was there to test drive the Ninja 1000SX (which I bought about a month ago). I also road just about everything they had making a day of it. When all the bikes were out on demos I asked to demo a Slingshot. I was amazed I liked it as much as I did. (OK George get to the point!)

On the return from the test ride I'm putting it back in the lot which requires backing in. I look in the mirrors and there is no body reference in those things! I look left, look right, nope I can see stuff back there but no reference, no body line to look down.

As I'm glancing back and forth to the rear view side mirrors I notice the center display has turned to a high definition rear view that I can actually see bright and clear what is behind. In that thing it was a welcome drivers aid.

In reference my cages are a 1987 F-250 PU and 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Lots of body line to make reference to and plenty of mirror size to see clearly what is behind. All except that area directly behind the rear bumper where a little kid could be missed. I will not call myself a fool for not having a rear camera on my old cages, but I would be a fool not to use one in any vehicle that came equipped with one. So, although I don't like all the new gizmo's, I have changed my mind about the rear camera and now consider it as a valid safety enhancement that maybe should be on all cars and trucks.
Speaking of electronics
James R. Davis
07/03/2020  4:52 PM
Obviously some of us are 'old salts' who appreciate the classical functionality of our cars and motorcycles and think that at least some of the current enhancements are bastardizations.

I well remember thinking that automatic shifting automobiles might be a fad and hoping to never have to rely on that functionality.

Shifting was in many ways a learned skill that demonstrated how well you'd grown as a driver. The next time I worried about that was when some motorcycles were being created with automatics. No thank you.

On the other hand, rear-view cameras that come on when in reverse (on automobiles) seems like a very good idea.

Maybe growing old allows me to be kinder toward developers.
Speaking of electronics
scottrnelson
07/03/2020  4:38 PM
Back when I used to work, a friend of mine who also worked at the same company was involved in designing processors and co-processors to go into cars to help both with driving and the infotainment system. He specifically purchased a Honda Crosstour because it had the driving aids and he wanted to experience where the industry was at. He picked me up at the airport once and had the lane assist kick in more than once, since he was one of those who doesn't pay attention 100% while talking. That one used cameras to figure it out.

Personally, I don't want a car that is trying to be smarter than me, so I intend to stick with my 2005 (no automatic stuff whatsoever), and 2014 (very little help) Fords as long as possible, because I don't like the newer cars. For sure I don't want a motorcycle doing much more than ABS and traction control.
What are the conflict of interests here?
scottrnelson
07/03/2020  4:27 PM
Five or six years ago my mother was seriously injured when getting out of a car parked on a slanted driveway. Apparently the driver didn't get the car all the way into park or something. The two women in their 90's in the front got out okay, but my mother, also in her 90's had just gotten her feet onto the ground getting out of the back when the car rolled back and knocked her down.

The insurance company said that she was at least 51% at fault even though she was totally blind in one eye and had very poor vision in the other. In other words, they didn't want to pay the medical bills.

The only option would have been for my mother to sue her friend, then the insurance company might pay up. She didn't want to do that.

You'll never hear me say a good word about that particular insurance company.
I'm Baaaaack!
scottrnelson
07/03/2020  4:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

I've been wondering what those of you who still ride think of the newest computerized enhancements being added to top-of-the-line bikes. Anybody care to share what they know?
The KTM 1090 Adventure R that I owned for a year and a half had traction control and ABS and four ride modes. The KTM 790 Adventure R that I own now also has those features, but they behave a bit differently. Both bikes came with throttle by wire, which is how traction control works.

Let me first mention the ABS. My 2008 KTM 990 Adv had that as well and I wasn't totally happy with it. The rear was too eager to kick in when slowing for turns. I would feel the vibration through the brake pedal and I know I wasn't close to sliding the tire yet. If I accidentally left it on in the dirt, it was difficult to get any braking action headed downhill in loose stuff. It basically prevented the brakes from doing enough to slow the bike in those conditions. And you had to be stopped to switch ABS off.

The ABS on the other two bikes is much better. In off-road mode, the 1090 basically turns it off for the rear but keeps it for the front. it behaves just how I want it to. On the 790, I'm not sure if off road mode changes the braking or just the engine behavior. I can't slide the rear wheel in the dirt unless I go into the menu and find another setting for the ABS to reduce what it does. Unclear why the 1090 and 790 don't behave the same. But overall, I like the ABS on these new bikes.

The traction control is interesting. When left in street mode, you can pull off into the dirt at the side of the road, stop, then start up and crank the throttle wide open and it won't spin the rear wheel, it will just gently pull out until you hit clean pavement, then the power comes on and it takes off. I think both bikes also have anti-wheelie control, but I've never really experimented to find out what that does. I just know that I've never had the front wheel off of the ground on either bike. Someday I would like to go to a drag strip and find out what it does, but as I get older I have less and less desire to do stuff like that.

I ride in the dirt a lot, quite a bit with the 1090 and as much as possible on my current 790. I try to switch to off-road mode as soon as I get to the end of the pavement, but sometimes I forget and the bike is very well behaved. It would be a problem trying to ride up a steep loose hill, but for most dirt roads it is well behaved. I can definitely spin the rear wheel in off-road mode if I want to.

Both bikes have a rain mode too, but I've only used it one time on the 1090. I was way up in the hills when I finally made it to pavement and it was wet, so I switched on rain mode. It makes traction control and ABS kick in sooner and cuts down the power - on the 1090 you "only" get 100 hp in that mode. I think it might reduce the power in that mode on the 790 too, but I don't really know.

I know that both bikes have lean angle sensors so that traction control will take effect sooner if you're leaned over than if the bike is vertical. I tend to regulate that myself, so I can't really say how effective it is. But it's nice to know that it's there.

I did a much more detailed write-up comparing the three bikes here:
https://bayarearidersforum.com/foru...php?t=540569

I like the computerized enhancements and even like knowing what my fuel mileage is (54 for the last 2000 miles on the 790, closer to 45 on the 1090).

This probably should be split off into a different thread. I would be happy to answer any questions that I haven't covered here.
Speaking of electronics
Eagle Six
07/03/2020  8:04 AM
I know little to nothing about driver aids in later model cars. I see on commercials where they self correct in lanes if they sense a nearby object conflict.

A while back I read about a controversy that in some situations the sensors were not picking up smaller objects the size of motorcycles or bicycles in certain angles.

My knowledge is so thin I need to bail out of this conversation.
Speaking of electronics
James R. Davis
07/02/2020  3:00 PM
I have been driving a new car and was surprised to notice that as I approached too closely the lane divide with my driver's side tire there was a mild self-correction being applied to my steering which took me back to the center of my lane.

Now I'm not objecting in any way to the existence of that capability in the car, though I think I should have been told about it.

And I don't believe anything like that exists for motorcycles, though I could be wrong about that.

How did the car know I was wandering? There were dashed white lines in place but no 'bots-dots' as well. And when I tried to test the mechanism again some time later, the car ignored my approaching that line. How did it know what was potentially my lack of awareness and when I was intentional?
What are the conflict of interests here?
James R. Davis
07/02/2020  2:47 PM
I'm unable to provide specifics about this question, just generalities.

A man's wife was his passenger on the bike when he crashed into something. Whether it was his fault or not, the wife, who was seriously injured, sued her husband.

Well, of course, that means she sued her husband's insurance company.

Does anybody find that to be filled with conflicts of interest?

Aint the law an interesting conundrum at times?
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
07/02/2020  2:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

But even though these attorney's are pretty bright guys, usually, it's still funny to watch them as you explain counter-steering. They 'kinda' believe me when I do, but not really.



I repeatedly see 'experienced' riders enter a curve a bit hot and cut it wide because they refuse to lean the bike, for fear they are going to low side, yet the speed they are entering and the radius of the turn requires a moderate amount of the lean somewhere about 30 degrees, I'm sure you see and hear of this as well. And, out of those there are a few who when running wide run out of road!

No amount of ABS, traction control or cornering control electronics are going to save a rider from running wide off the road, if they refuse to lean the bike and make the turn.

Perhaps someone will design a training bike something in reference to the 'No BS' bike that Keith Code uses at his California Superbike School, focusing on the new electronics, that students/instructors can use to safely (relatively safe that is) demonstrate things like cornering control. I know the manufactures of these fancy gizmo's have testing equipment and I'm sure they are expensive. Maybe the industry should get together to share the cost and make these bike simulators available to trainers such as the MSF, CSS and YCRS. I'm not holding my breath.


I'm Baaaaack!
James R. Davis
07/02/2020  12:41 PM
Bravo! Thanks for the feedback I asked for.

There is nothing more important than training and experience to increase the odds in favor of the rider. Electronics may help, but the number of times I've seen or heard about the 'experienced' rider, who rode dirt bikes when he was a kid and nothing for 20 years after that, deciding he didn't need formal training. So he buys a brand new Harley-Davidson, mounts it in his driveway, and proceeds to crash into the parked car 50 feet down the road. "It fought me! It wouldn't let me turn!"

I've had to explain to any number of attorney's who've retained me that experience and training allow a relatively new rider to do some things preemptively - like cover their front brake lever, and why.

But even though these attorney's are pretty bright guys, usually, it's still funny to watch them as you explain counter-steering. They 'kinda' believe me when I do, but not really. That client of theirs who ran off the road as he was unable to handle a mild curve and died as a result, they probably didn't believe what they heard about counter-steering either.
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
07/02/2020  12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

I've been wondering what those of you who still ride think of the newest computerized enhancements being added to top-of-the-line bikes. Anybody care to share what they know?


I recently purchased a 2020 Ninja 1000SX, it has ABS, TC, IMU, throttle-by-wire, cruise control, up and down quick shifter. It has a live lean angle indicator, and a maximum lean angle recorder.

I have only put about 1,800 miles on it. Despite some threshhold braking it hasn't as yet kicked in the ABS. I did test the traction control and it works fine. The maximum lean angle I have on the bike so far is 45 degrees and although I have braked a few time in a turn, I felt no effect of the IMU cornering control.

I average one training class per year and self-train in a lot and on the street often. With that said, every ride is a training opportunity. I would like to see others start out being well trained and developing their skills, before they start depending on fancy electro's to save them. On the otherhand I would not want to be the one who withheld the electronic ride controls from an untrained rider when it may have prevented him/her from getting hurt.
I'm Baaaaack!
James R. Davis
07/02/2020  9:40 AM
Those strict rules are simple: No h_a_t_e (the site will not even allow that word) speech. No misinformation. No politics.

If those offend people, they are better off elsewhere.

The reason discussions have largely stopped here is that I had a severe stroke that paralyzed the right half of my body and had to stop riding and spending time here articulating and drafting new safety tips. (I've recovered 99% of the use of my right side, by the way.)

Though no longer riding, I remain very actively involved as a Motorcycle Safety and Dynamics expert witness. Those safety tips you can read by clicking on the pink button at the top right of your screen are OFTEN referred to in court cases and have NEVER, not once, been challenged or dismissed. They can save your life and are there for you.

I've been wondering what those of you who still ride think of the newest computerized enhancements being added to top-of-the-line bikes. Anybody care to share what they know?

BTW, I'll take care of the slow performance of the site shortly. Sorry it decayed so much without my knowing about it.
Motorcycle Safety / Physics and the theoretical
Neutral Steering (fact or fancy?)
Oggiedoggy
07/01/2020  8:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis



Increasing speed to about 30 mph, as is shown with the red dot results in your having to provide a POSITIVE steering torque (pushing forward on the OUTSIDE grip) with a magnitude of nearly one, your bike will be unstable, and it will be leaning about 37 degrees.




How would you exit a turn with this steering attitude then? More forward pressure on the outside grip? Forward on inside grip?

*edit: is it forward on the outside bar since the bike would be in its capsize-mode, wanting to fall down if bar pressure were released?
Motorcycle Safety / General Discussion
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
06/21/2020  7:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by magnaman

Well I purchased the R1150RT a week ago last Thursday and have so far put 800 miles on it. Today was the first day I started to feel comfortable riding it. I had an ST1100 for a short time but usually rode the Magna 700. Like Scott, it has taken me a while to get comfortable. I attribute that to getting more PLP as well as riding the lightly traveled roads around Wisconsin, getting familiar with riding again. It has been fun!



That's an average of over 100 miles per day! Keep it up and this time next year you could have put over 30K miles on your Beemer! Along with the 48K when you bought it last week that total would finally get it broke-in!
I'm Baaaaack!
magnaman
06/21/2020  6:58 PM
Well I purchased the R1150RT a week ago last Thursday and have so far put 800 miles on it. Today was the first day I started to feel comfortable riding it. I had an ST1100 for a short time but usually rode the Magna 700. Like Scott, it has taken me a while to get comfortable. I attribute that to getting more PLP as well as riding the lightly traveled roads around Wisconsin, getting familiar with riding again. It has been fun!
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
06/18/2020  3:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by scottrnelson

If some of you newer people could ask a few questions, it might help. I've already said everything that I have to say, but I'll still occasionally share an experience. However, I'm not going to be the only one doing it here.



When I joined I read many threads and posts and got the idea it was a rather strict rules based forum, which is OK with me, but apparently may have rubbed others a bit wrong.

I don't have too many questions, I'm a relative new member here by post count but been riding for many years, had a lot of training, a lot of bikes and try to help others if they want. However, some of the training and skills I have developed may be frowned on by some of the 'experts' so I somewhat keep my mouth shut. Well, that's really not true, I probably never did learn to keep quiet!!!!
I'm Baaaaack!
scottrnelson
06/18/2020  3:20 PM
Many years ago this place had a lot going on. We would get a lot of new riders asking questions and lots of experienced riders answering them. Unfortunately, many of those with a lot to say eventually got kicked off due to the "three strikes and you're out rule". Other forums give the offender a week of vacation instead, then two weeks, then a month, then they get kicked off. But I don't make the rules here, I just know how to keep from breaking them.

If some of you newer people could ask a few questions, it might help. I've already said everything that I have to say, but I'll still occasionally share an experience. However, I'm not going to be the only one doing it here.
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
06/18/2020  2:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by scottrnelson

Welcome back. If we can get a few more we might actually get some discussions going here.

Ride safe.



I think I joined this board last year and check it once a day on the days I'm checking other forums, but not sure why I do, doesn't seem to be much activity and I rarely have any input, but seems like some great members here (or were here!).
I'm Baaaaack!
magnaman
06/17/2020  4:35 PM
Thank you, to you both. Discussions are good, and I look forward to them. I first signed up here about 3 months before I had bought my first bike, and I spent that whole time reading and learning. I think I read every post on the site! I can't tell you how much I learned. There is no doubt it opened my eyes and saved my tail on more than one occasion. This site has been indispensable to me. Thank you to all who have posted here over the years.
I'm Baaaaack!
Eagle Six
06/15/2020  7:40 PM
quote:
I'm Back In The Saddle Again! I'm Baaaaaak!


Good to hear you are "Baaaaaak!", rubber side down and keep the passion alive!!
I'm Baaaaack!
scottrnelson
06/15/2020  7:27 PM
Welcome back. If we can get a few more we might actually get some discussions going here.

Ride safe.
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