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 Another retread who has trouble with counter-steering
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17286 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500
Peer Review: 2

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  10:31 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend                        Like       
Yet another retread has written me and asked for help in understanding why he is having trouble negotiating curves. Indeed, in this case, why he was UNABLE to make his bike turn properly and ended up crashed at the side of the road.

Here is a part of his e-mail that eliminates any indication of who he might be:

quote:
Bought a bike in Mar. 08. First time on a bike in over 20 yrs. Have never had trouble before. Crux of my inquiry as follows. Was on country road recently on a tight curve to left. Speed was good, lean angle was good. Bike momentum kept pulling me to right and ended up in ditch, when I was trying to steer left through turn. Make sense? Can not figure out what I did wrong. Wonder if I was target fixated or if I was under-steering. Am reading with interest your articles on counter-steering, and related articles on curves. Will be taking safety course at first opportunity, but in mean time,am still re-learning and practicing.

Sound familiar? His bike was 'fighting him' on that turn.

Here is most of my response presented to you because I think there is something of value in it for all of our readers generally:

quote:
Thanks for reaching out and for your kind comments. I will, of course, try to help you with this issue.

First, I would like you to clear your mind of EVERYTHING you may have read or believe relative to counter-steering. I will attempt to replace that bulk of knowledge with a disciplined and rational real world set of information that you can absolutely believe without any confusion (or time lags) - thus USE as needed.

I'm sure that in your reading you have learned about gyroscopic effects and camber thrust and associate those with counter-steering. Forget about them! They do NOT cause counter-steering to work. Instead, they make counter-steering smooth and effortless. You need to understand what counter-steering actually is and how to control it, and that's all.

At speeds below about 10 mph you can ONLY direct-steer. That means that you can ONLY turn your handlebar in the direction you want to go, cause the bike to lean, and then use BALANCE and speed to complete that turn. Notice the word BALANCE is in caps - that, because ONLY when you are moving at speeds less than about 10 mph are you required to assist your bike in maintaining its attitude and not fall over. At higher speeds (by that I mean more than 10 mph) there is NO BALANCE WHATEVER required by you in order to help the motorcycle stay upright - NONE!

The reason for that is that virtually everything about a motorcycle involving its attitude reverses at about 10 mph. For example, if you are turning while moving at, say, 5 mph, and your bike begins to fall, you can save it by merely increasing its speed. But if you are turning while moving at, say, 20 mph, and your bike feels like it is leaning too far (and, thus, in your mind might fall onto its side), if you increase your speed the lean angle will get LARGER (the lean angle will increase). That's right, it leans more when you INCREASE speed and it 'falls' UP instead of down when you reduce your speed while in a turn. The fact is that at any speed over about 10 mph the bike, BY ITSELF - without input from you - determines what the right lean angle should be. YOU CANNOT establish the lean angle. Note that I am now talking about the angle of lean of the combined bike and you. You can, of course, cause the bike itself to lean a little more or less by shifting your body lean angle in the opposite direction, but doing so IN NO WAY changes the lean angle of the combined bike and rider.

That is just another way of saying that balance is not only unnecessary, it is also USELESS at speeds over about 10 mph.

So how does a motorcycle establish its own lean angle? It is simply as a result of centrifugal force offsetting gravity. The faster you travel in a turn, or the tighter that turn is, the greater will be the resulting centrifugal force. Gravity remains constant so a larger centrifugal force supports a greater lean angle, automatically. I know, one would think based on experience that greater centrifugal force would try to make the bike's body lean AWAY from a turn instead of into it, and so now we need to look at what's really happening with a more critical eye. [Think of centrifugal force pushing your contact patches to the outside of the turn instead of the top of your bike.]

When you make a turn it is your perception that you are leaning the top of your body along with the top of the bike INTO that turn. But that is NOT what actually happens. Imagine holding an inverted broom on the palm of your hand, bristles at the top. Balancing that broom is no big deal. If the top of the broom starts to move to the right, you move your hand to the right and that saves it. But now imagine that you want the top of the broom to move to the right.

Clearly the way you make that happen is to move your hand to the left. The top of the broom then SEEMS to be moving to the right but what is actually happening is that your hand is moving to the left and the top of the broom is essentially staying in place. That's because of INERTIA. Mass tries to stay in whatever attitude it is in.

EXACTLY the same thing happens when you are moving at speeds greater than about 10 mph and you want to turn your bike to the right. You do that by moving the contact patches of your wheels to the left. Inertia tries to keep the top of the bike and your head in place while the wheels OUT-TRACK to the left. The result is that it appears that you have leaned the bike to the right. What happens after that starts the lean to the right is that your front wheel is AUTOMATICALLY forced to turn slightly to the right. That is NOT the result of your turning the handlebar to the right but, rather, it is because you LET the handlebar turn to the right. And, as a result, the bike begins traveling in a new direction - to the right of where it was pointed when you began the direction change.

I just described how counter-steering actually works and how you start it. Note that counter-steering is not a momentary thing that you use to begin a change of direction - it is the only way you can change direction (like making it go even more sharply to the right) at speeds over about 10 mph. That comment about letting the handlebar turn to the right is EXTREMELY important for your understanding of counter-steering. You see, you MUST MAINTAIN some counter-steering pressure on your handlebar in order to continue turning to the right for as long as you want to keep turning to the right!

It is simple to visualize the concept of out-tracking when you start a turn. For example, if you are moving straight ahead and you turn your front wheel slightly to the LEFT of dead ahead, you now know that will cause the bike to APPEAR to lean to the right, but the reality is that the front wheel contact patch (like your palm when balancing that broom) moves to the left. What is not so obvious is that when the front wheel of the bike then begins to turn to the right IT CONTINUES TO OUT-TRACK. That is, it continues to point slightly to the LEFT of your INSTANTANEOUS direction of travel.



Now you need to know about one more less obvious force at play here: the RIGHTING FORCE. You know, I'm sure, that your motorcycle tries all by itself to ride in a straight line, vertical. If you removed your hands from the grips and simply sat on your saddle, the bike would try to go in a straight line. That, because of TRAIL. Trail causes the front tire to try to turn in the direction of instantaneous travel. In other words, it tries to make the front wheel point in the direction of the green arrows. In the above diagram trail would try to make the front wheel turn to the right. And if it is successful in turning the wheel so that it points in the direction of the green arrow, the bike would THEN BE MOVING STRAIGHT AHEAD. So, the righting force is what is pushing against your inside grip hand and it is what you must push against in order to continue turning. Now I think you understand that counter-steering is not just how you start a turn, it is how you continue that turn.

The righting force is STRONGER than your steering input!!!!!! If, for example, you pressed forward on the right grip to cause the front wheel to out-track to the left, the righting force would push back against your input and IF YOU ALLOW IT TO (as you must), the front wheel turns back from out-tracking to the left and now points slightly to the right of where it was pointing when you started the turn, though it is still out-tracking to the left of the instantaneous direction of travel. If you had simply locked your elbows and stiff armed your right grip, the bike would immediately fall over to the right as the righting force is, as I said, STRIONGER than your input. You push hard, it pushes back harder. You complete the turn and control your bike by MANAGING THE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE YOU APPLY TO THE INSIDE GRIP.

So now lets PROVE it to you and make this understanding part of your reality.

Take the bike out onto a large parking lot and begin riding a LARGE oval or rectangle with LARGE curved corners. This is not an exercise in which you are trying to make a tight turn!!! All I want you to do is, while riding that circuit, lift your fingers off the grips and steer using only the palms of your hands. While moving in a straight line portion of that circuit I want you to press forward on the RIGHT GRIP of your handlebar with the palm of your right hand ONLY. You can take your left hand entirely off the grip if you want to, but in any event you are not to press forward with your left hand. You are trying to turn to the right by doing this. I assure you that the front wheel will momentarily OUT-TRACK to the left and immediately turn to the RIGHT and your motorcycle will actually turn to the right. Your job was merely to manage how hard you pressed FORWARD (NOT DOWN) on the right grip and observe that the harder you push, the sharper the turn will get.

Press forward with the palm of the left hand and that will reverse the turn - getting it to go straight again - or, if you wish, continue pressing on the left grip and the bike will begin moving to the left.

NO BODY LEAN INVOLVED AT ALL. No body english at all. Just out-tracking the front tire results in the turn. THAT IS COUNTER_STEERING.

Your accident was the result of your not believing or understanding counter-steering. You tried to turn to the left but the bike FOUGHT YOU and was not as responsive as you needed it to be. The harder you tried, the harder it fought. In other words, you tried to direct-steer or use body English or leaning when all you had to do was press FORWARD HARDER on the LEFT grip and the bike would have INSTANTLY and without any fight at all, complied.



Now please note another FUNDAMENTAL problem evidenced by this retread - he BELIEVES that the MSF BRC is a 'Safety Course' instead of a motorcycle control fundamentals class. He BELIEVES that he already knows how to control his bike (the current problem notwithstanding) and merely needs to 're-learn' what he knew. My bet is that 20 years ago he never even heard of counter-steering, let alone 'knew how to use it'.

halsey
Male Senior Member
321 Posts


davison, mi
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  7:26 AM
If there was a Top Gun school for riders, James would definetly be the Viper.:)

Great info. This technical explanation of what is actually going on during our rides, certainly makes my riding more interesting, and safer.
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Moses
Male Senior Member
377 Posts
[Mentor]


Grand Rapids, Michigan
USA

Harley-Davidson

FX Softail

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  8:18 AM
James -

Your response to the "retread" is, in my opinion, your best decription/explanation of countersteering yet. It is very easy to understand, explains the technical aspects without getting too technical, and effectively hammers home the point that countersteering isn't just a "notion", but a physical reality to be understood and used. Good form!

I'd even go as far as to say that it should be required reading for ALL motorcyclists, from newcomers to retreads and everyone in between. I'm always amazed when I get one of those blank "What are you talking about?" stares after mentioning countersteering to an allegedly "experienced" rider.

Maybe I'll make some printouts of your post and just keep a few copies in my saddlebags for handouts.
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  10:25 AM
I was always disappointed at the overly simplistic way the teaching of directional control of a motorcycle is usually described as simply countersteering in basic courses without dealing with the concept and actual practice of establishing a banking angle as a result of the steering input. The use of steering to in-track to go to to a neutral (vertical)attitude or reverse the banking angle (as in a figure eight or chicane situation) is something that I do not recall ever seeing in a printed reference.

Your description of countersteer input to describe the out track establishing the banking angle and and how the banking angle can be increased if necessary to properly round the curve is as good or better than any I have seen.
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Mystic Red
Male Senior Member
379 Posts


Twin Lakes, Idaho
USA

BMW

K1100LT

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  11:02 AM
Off track a bit, but I almost ran off the road the first time I rode a 4-wheeler because it wouldn't counter steer! Geez, it had motorcycle like handle bars but as hard as I pushed on the left bar it still wanted to run off the right side of the road. Figured out what was wrong just before I had real problems.
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Deseret Rider
Male Advanced Member
776 Posts
[Mentor]


Helper, Utah
USA

BMW

R1100RT

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  11:23 AM
"I'm always amazed when I get one of those blank "What are you talking about?" stares after mentioning counter-steering to an allegedly "experienced" rider."

I am going to voice an opinion here---and that is that it is highly likely that the 'experienced rider' referred to above is probably perfectly capable of steering his motorcycle without knowing anything about the physics of counter-steering. For him, counter-steering is 'instinctive' and he does not have to understand the physics of it. Many of us 'old timers' were pretty good at steering out motorcycles before counter-steering was explained to us.

The cerebral will find it informative and interesting to follow Mr. Davis' excellent explanation of the principle. Putting the principle into practice to the point that it becomes instinctive would be a good thing. Finding yourself in a decreasing radius curve and then trying to remember HOW TO COUNTERSTEER isn't so good. What I am saying is that there isn't any room for confusion in the later situation. Knowing how to steer your motorcycle is the important thing whether or not you understand counter-steering principle. By whatever means you learn, if 'steering' hasn't become instinctive for you then you are starting out with two strikes against you and you are subjecting yourself to danger.

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Cash Anthony
Female Administrator
1467 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, Texas
USA

Honda

Magna 750

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  12:24 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
The Duck wrote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to voice an opinion here---and that is that it is highly likely that the 'experienced rider' referred to above is probably perfectly capable of steering his motorcycle without knowing anything about the physics of counter-steering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I can tell you that a highly IN-experienced rider who recently did exactly the exercise described in the tip called later to tell me that it had possibly saved his life.

He was a former rider of dirt bikes who came back to ride street bikes recently, took the MSF and is attentive to gear and safety in general. He also described the way he made the bike turn was "to lean it."

Once he experienced the actual process of making the bike turn by using a tiny bit of pressing forward on the grip - no body English, no pulling the bike sideways -- he advised that his confidence, his sense of control and his concern when entering a formerly intimidating reducing radius exit ramp had all been changed. "Just by that one thing!" he said.

He was excited. He's a smart guy, and he said he felt it had enhanced his riding enormously to gain this skill and start to realize how to use it.

So, sure, lots of people have ridden many miles "intuitively" and have managed not to get into trouble where it mattered. On the other hand, lots of people who also used to own bikes have stopped riding, and many who do have bikes ride *very* few miles each year.

I have a feeling -- call it an intuition? -- that one of the reasons they ride less and less is that their sense of control isn't nearly as precise as my friend with his new bike.

Now if we can help him keep that cocky streak from taking over...


Cash
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Cash Anthony
Female Administrator
1467 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, Texas
USA

Honda

Magna 750

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  12:34 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Mystic Red wrote
quote:
Off track a bit, but I almost ran off the road the first time I rode a 4-wheeler because it wouldn't counter steer! Geez, it had motorcycle-like handle bars, but as hard as I pushed on the left bar, it still wanted to run off the right side of the road.
The first and only time I've tried to ride a trike, I had a similar thing happen.

It was at a rally in Smithville, and a trike converter company was there with several Gold Wing conversions as well as a gorgeous Valkyrie trike. I decided to take a test ride.

The guy who owned the company rode pillion while I sat in the saddle and thought about how familiar everything looked: I've ridden three or four Wings, and the layout (of course) was the same. But the dynamics were totally different. And when he started shouting at me, trying to save us both!, it simply didn't make any difference what he said -- my head and my training were saying the opposite.

We started out slowly in a straight line on a gravel drive, but we were headed for an opening in a barbed wire fence, a bar ditch leading down to the river on the left, and a building full of rally-goers on the right.

When the trike started to veer off to the left -- well, it has handlebars like a bike, right? It would *seem* to want to be counter-steered, right? And the more I pushed right, the more I went left. It was massively confusing.

Fortunately, our speed stayed below 30 mph, and when I hit the brakes (hard - it scared me!), they worked. I refused to drive back to the shed.

So when I've heard of friends and acquaintances who had ridden on two wheels for years and then tried to switch to three, but got into trouble -- sometimes terrible trouble, I can completely sympathize.

I just realized that this wasn't something I could pick up in a weekend, and I would have to think very very hard before I would try to ride a trike again. All my instincts and my experiences in close calls are against it.

When you think about how natural counter-steering can come to be, and how much you rely upon your bike responding exactly as you expect when you give it that little bit of input and hold it for a turn, it seems to me that an understanding of what is happening can only help your riding improve -- maybe just enough to save your life.


Cash
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  12:55 PM
Folks who go back and forth between bikes, trikes, sidecar equipped bikes, snowmobiles and personal watercraft without killing themselves sure have my respect. My muscle memory would be very confused. I tried steering with my left hand on the right grip once. It's a good thing it was in a parking lot at slow speed.
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Tburd
Male Senior Member
476 Posts


Waukesha, WI
USA

Suzuki

Boulevard S50

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  4:54 PM
This is not only one of the best explanations of counter-steering it is one of the shortest. Often I've seen steering discussions that are either too short or too long, get sidetracked, are technically inaccurate, or are flawed in other ways. This one James I think really hits the mark.

When I checked in earlier today I thought I'd see that this thread would have turned into another one of the Safety Tips and was a little surprised when it hadn't. So, I thought I'd come back this afternoon and make the suggestion but found out this is already Tip 255. Great, now I can easily link to it if I need to.
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KLS
Ex-Member

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  7:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Deseret Rider

"I'm always amazed when I get one of those blank "What are you talking about?" stares after mentioning counter-steering to an allegedly "experienced" rider."

I am going to voice an opinion here---and that is that it is highly likely that the 'experienced rider' referred to above is probably perfectly capable of steering his motorcycle without knowing anything about the physics of counter-steering....



What is STEERING? Hmmm? At very slow speeds I need to counterbalance and turn the bars the way I want to go. At higher speeds I need to stay on axis or hang off and turn the bars a bit counter to the way I want to go. Are both STEERING? In one way, yes, both are directing the bike. But they are opposite actions. So, let's adopt different terminology for the different actions. Here's an idea...let's call the higher speed action COUNTER STEERING, just for clarity, of course.

I just finished the ERC. No mention was made of countersteering. Instruction was given to press the bar down toward the inside of the turn. In the swerve, necessarily at slow speed due to the range layout, leaning the bike was the instruction. Countersteering was certainly performed, 'cuz everyone stayed on the range and generally in the designated tracks during the moderate speed exercises.

It is truly amazing when one discovers the power of increased countersteering to tighten the radius of a turn!
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17286 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  7:29 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
At very slow speeds I need to counterbalance and turn the bars the way I want to go. At higher speeds I need to stay on axis or hang off and turn the bars a bit counter to the way I want to go.

I think you intended to cause a stir with those comments. Hopefully, you don't actually mean what you said.

You NEVER 'need' to counterbalance OR hang off and if an MSF instructor told you that you needed to press DOWN on your inside grip in order to make a turn he should be forced to resign (you push FORWARD, not down).
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Deseret Rider
Male Advanced Member
776 Posts
[Mentor]


Helper, Utah
USA

BMW

R1100RT

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  11:38 PM
Cash said
"Well, I can tell you that a highly IN-experienced rider who recently did exactly the exercise described in the tip called later to tell me that it had possibly saved his life."

Cash--That this fellow learned something that saved his life is wonderful! I do not mean to downplay the principle of counter-steering. My comments were intended to focus on the fact that sometimes an 'instinctive' reaction is necessary and that riders should not stop developing their 'instinct' to counter-steer simply because they now understand the principle. I am confident of this statement based on an experience I had some years ago;

I had just gone over the top--northbound on Wyo.#28 near South Pass. It was a nice afternoon and I was riding fast---about 65 miles per hour. I was near the center line on a hard downhill left turn when--BAM---suddenly,and without warning, I found myself blown to the outside edge of the road, riding the white line and close to going off the pavement. This was a moment of sheer terror---I'm not sure exactly what I did---but I know that whatever it was was instictive and without conscious thought process. I pushed the bike down hard and hung on the corner completing the turn safely. I realize now that I actually 'counter-steered' the bike by pushing hard on the handlebar---but I didn't do that consciously or from thinking about it---it was strictly a terror driven reaction. I know now that I had ridden into a severe 'downdraft' and the sudden force of wind had straightened up my bike allowing it to move to the outside of the road. It was my 'instinct' to counter-steer (though I didn't understand the principle at the time) that saved me.

I believe the important thing is to put the principle into practice until it becomes automatic---so that one can execute it withoug thinking about it. I guess that's all I meant to say anyway.
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  8:58 AM
James,

Nice writeup.

To visualize the "broom effect" you describe, I just stand vertically with a shoulder against a wall. When I move my feet away from the wall, I end up leaning into the wall. I like it because it can be demonstrated easily if showing someone counter-steering.

Last week, Niebor and I were standing next to a range when the coach was trying to explain counter-steering. We were both thoroughly confused by the explanation which seemed to imply a need to lean with the body somehow.
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KLS
Ex-Member

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  11:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

quote:
At very slow speeds I need to counterbalance and turn the bars the way I want to go. At higher speeds I need to stay on axis or hang off and turn the bars a bit counter to the way I want to go.

I think you intended to cause a stir with those comments. Hopefully, you don't actually mean what you said.

You NEVER 'need' to counterbalance OR hang off and if an MSF instructor told you that you needed to press DOWN on your inside grip in order to make a turn he should be forced to resign (you push FORWARD, not down).


MSF Experienced Rider Classroom Card #8 (page 18)
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/ER...om_Cards.pdf
--Slow (the bike)
--Look
--Press (down on the hand grip on the side to which one will turn)
--Roll (on the throttle)

I sometimes need to adjust my balance for slow speed stability. My neophyte friction zone control is much of my problem. At speed hanging off or leaning in gives more footpeg clearance...fun to corner that way on a traffic-free, cliff-free, gravel-free curve.
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17286 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  11:24 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Ah! It is true because the MSF says it's true. NUTS!

So, it stands to reason that 'pressing DOWN' on the inside grip simply MUST be accurate and THE way to counter-steer, according to you.

Can you tell us WHY pressing DOWN causes counter-steering to work and why pressing FORWARD does not?

I didn't think so.

Dogma and myth - makes you proud of that MSF organization, doesn't it?
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  11:45 AM
KLS, could you please expand upon what you mean by "I sometimes need to adjust my balance for low speed stability" and describe how you go about adjusting your balance.
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KLS
Ex-Member

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  12:50 PM
I'm rehabing some ligament strain in my hands. A full day of PLP is a real chore for me. Friction zone control by the end of the day is a challenge.

Without proper friction zone control of the clutch and proper engine speed so the clutch can be used as needed, very slow balance can be challenging. Shifting my weight on top of the motorcycle is a poor substitute for proper speed control during very slow maneuvers, but one does what one has to in order to fit the circumstances. Upper body movements are both too slow and too hard to modulate...too gross. If that's the only thing left before putting a foot down, well....
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17286 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  1:07 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Without proper friction zone control of the clutch and proper engine speed so the clutch can be used as needed, very slow balance can be challenging. Shifting my weight on top of the motorcycle is a poor substitute for proper speed control during very slow maneuvers, but one does what one has to in order to fit the circumstances.

More nonsense.

Your speed is in no way controlled by shifting your body into or out of a turn. Counterbalancing ONLY makes the bike lean farther in that same turn than it would if you kept your body in-line with the bike.

Not only is shifting your weight NOT 'a poor substitute for speed control', it provides NO speed control.
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Tburd
Male Senior Member
476 Posts


Waukesha, WI
USA

Suzuki

Boulevard S50

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  3:29 PM
quote:
MSF Experienced Rider Classroom Card #8 (page 18)
--Slow (the bike)
--Look
--Press (down on the hand grip on the side to which one will turn)
--Roll (on the throttle)


I looked at Card #8 (page 18) and it does say "Slow, Look, Press, Roll" but it doesn't have any of the additional text such as "down on the handgrip." It's a good thing it doesn't because that would be a significant error and if the Rider Coaches interpreted it that way they are wrong. You are pressing on the handlebars to steer the bike which is the result of rotating the handlebars and front wheel about the steering axis. Pushing in the direction of the axis does nothing to turn the handlebars and therefore will do no steering.
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17286 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  3:37 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Guess what happens when a deliberate misrepresentation is made by a member. KLS is history.
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