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 Motorcycle Safety
 Roadcraft
 Video clips - Thames Valley police motorcyclist
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  9:44 AM
Rioguy, Point taken on the riders decision to pass as shown on the above "Thames Vally Rider" video. My comment may be a reflection on the my sense after watching the cumulative videos so far presented. The only example of a motorcycle being passed by another vehicle up until now as near as I can recall is when the camera bike passed the subject being recorded.

I would love to be able to avail myself of the opportunity to receive the instruction provided in an actual Roadcraft training program. The overall concept appears to be well thought out in terms of the traffic conditions that I have experienced in the UK and EU.
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1688 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  10:39 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

quote:
Originally posted by Night Train

Nigel, thanks for the clarification as you have also addressed my concerns and as well the points raised in Gymnast's post. From review of the video, it does most certainly appear to be directed more in the lines of Police Riding as opposed to civilian riding.

I get the impression that this program is primarily aimed at reducing the number of motorcycle injury and deaths due to the high number of what I term "renegade riders".


I think you have made an error in assessing who the program is targeted at and then used that assessment to critique it. Roadcraft does not seem at all to be targeted at renegade riders.


I think there should be a distinction between Roadcraft the program, and some of the videos posted such as the one on this thread, presumably shown for the benefit of the BikeSafe program.

Nigel acknowledged that the police training, would naturally involve some faster riding, as the police motor officer will need to do in the course of their job description. He also mentioned that indeed, they hope these videos which are posted on YouTube, for anyone to see, might show the "renegade riders" a better and safer way to ride at a rate of speed that they'll do anyway.

That was my take on some of the faster riding videos, and who the audience might be.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  4:54 PM
gymnast wrote:
'I would love to be able to avail myself of the opportunity to receive the instruction provided in an actual Roadcraft training program. The overall concept appears to be well thought out in terms of the traffic conditions that I have experienced in the UK and EU.'

My only thought on this one is to see whether the motorcycle section of your local police department is interested in taking up the US Bikesafe programme which, as I expect you are now aware, is run by Mark Brown, a motorcyle patrol man (correct terminology?) in North Carolina.

The difficult is that many of you in the US who are sufficiently intersted are very widely spaced so, in any case, it would seem difficult to bring you all together should the opportunity present itself for the right sort of training session cum programme, say, over a weekend, or something like that. But it has to start somewhere and clearly there is some sort of groundswell identify ing itself. We firstly need to have more evidence of those who would seriously be intersted in such a programme (pardon the UK English spelling, if you will).

One alternative, at least for starters, might be to have some sort of conference call where we could discuss points arising and put a voices to names and see where it goes from there. It might be a useful thing to do in any case. Comment please.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  5:14 PM
Night Train wrote about being impressed with the Roadcraft program and also,
'I have been riding for over 42 years and accumulated close to a 1/2 million miles on motorcycles. I have learned a lot but believe there is a lot more that I could learn. If the Roadcraft program was available anywhere within 500 miles of me, I would jump at the opportunity to sign up for it.'

People who are continually like a sponge, always looking for new ideas and developing better understanding of existing ones are, by their nature, going to be inheritantly safer than those who will not learn. I think it was Rich De Vos who said that, 'those who will not read are no better off than those who can not read'.

As mentioned Roadcraft has already taken hold in North Carolina by virtue of Mark Brown's (U.S.) Bikesafe programme. What is needed in the first place, I feel, is more of this. The problem may be convincing the local police department that this sort of program is of value. If it is then the first thing they would have to do is get some of their officers aquainted with the whole ethos of Roadcraft and how it is dramatically different from (what I perceive as) almost all other U.S. based road safety cum advanced courses which seem to primarily revolve around trying to dig yourself out of the mess you are already in - i.e emergency evasion techniques. The principles behind Roadcraft mean that if you have gone that far you have got it serously wrong in the first place.

In the interim I suggest you might wish to be on the mailing list of core people on the forum who have a strong interest in RC and what it represents. You can then also have the items on Understanding System, Positioning and The Basics of Overtaking. If you wish to do this please send a personal message within which is your email.

You briefly referred to the D12 Manual cum programme. This is some 60 pages of A4 in total. The above items are extracts from it.

Best Wishes

Nigel
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  6:54 PM
Nigel A. In looking at Mark Browns Website for his school, I do not see any type of program that resembles what I envision a "Roadcraft program" to be. What I do see is a series of offerings consisting of MFS BRC and Dirt Bike schools, and some one or two day programs. What am I missing? There is some mention of private instruction however the details are not obvious. I also got the impression that Mark Brown while owning the school, is still working full time as a patrol officer. From what I saw of the motomark website, it was not what I was expecting.
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2082 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  7:10 PM
Is the "D12 Manual cum programme" the same as "Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling".

If they are separate documents is the D12 manual available for purchase anywhere?
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  7:47 PM
I met a guy today who was passing through on his way from all over to Tulsa, OK. He happened to ride in with a bad valve stem when I was at the dealership. While they fixed it, we had supper.

He is a Rider's Edge coach and we talked about training programs. I brought up Roadcraft and he said he took a course called "Stayin' Safe"

You can find information here: http://www.stayinsafe.com/

He said it was very much like Roadcraft. It appears like we could schedule a class anyplace. However, they are located in Pennsylvania which is pretty close to Colorado.

Nigel,

Creating a program in the United States might be harder than you think. Many places have laws which limit training to MSF. Colorado has a loophole. Courses can also be started by those who are qualified as police motorcycle instructors.

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rayg50
Male Moderator
2082 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  8:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

... Many places have laws which limit training to MSF ...




Do they limit the training or do they limit which trainers can offer the waiver?


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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  8:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel A

One alternative, at least for starters, might be to have some sort of conference call where we could discuss points arising and put a voices to names and see where it goes from there. It might be a useful thing to do in any case. Comment please.



OK, do any of you have Skype? And also have a webcam and mike?

Skype is free (to get and to use) and most newish laptops have the camera and mike built in...

We could video conference at will for free...
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1688 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  9:33 PM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

... Many places have laws which limit training to MSF ...




Do they limit the training or do they limit which trainers can offer the waiver?




It has to be the latter Ray. All sorts of motorcycle training is available in most states that I can think of. From the Ride like a Pro stuff, to track days, and about everything in between.
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  10:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

quote:
Originally posted by rioguy

... Many places have laws which limit training to MSF ...




Do they limit the training or do they limit which trainers can offer the waiver?



In Colorado, it's illegal to take pay for training unless you have either been trained by MSF or trained as a police motorcycle instructor.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's something I would check out if I were starting a course.

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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  10:47 PM
-rkfire, Rioguy may be referring to Florida where the MSF BRC Course (and only the MSF BRC Course) is REQUIRED for licensing and there are several other states where rider license and/or registration fees may only be used to partially or fully support the cost of MSF BRC or ERC training courses. In some states, such as Pennsylvania and a few others, a rider who completes the BRC course may then ride without a helmet while other training courses are not so recognized. States sign exclusivity agreements with MSF in order to use their curriculum materials, have their ranges "approved" by MSF and sign liability waivers agreements exempting MSF from all liability. So yes, indeed MSF training is "codified" in some states. This does not prevent others from offering track days, police training, and other types of motorcycle rider training. However, those other types of training are not recognized by the the state Motorcycle Safety Advisory Committees in all states save Oregon and Idaho where in Oregon, the Team Oregon Program is the recognized program for skill test license waivers and Idaho, where the Idaho Star Program is recognized for skill test waivers. I do not know where military sponsored training programs fit into the license waiver program in these two states, but I have not heard of any specific problems.

Does MSF limit training? It all depends on ones perspective.

Edit. From my perspective, MSF "has a lock" on training in both the civilian and military programs and has interfered in the only two state programs that are not controlled by the MSF and do not use MSF materials in the program recognized and subsidized by the state . MSF sued the state of Oregon with a bogus copyright claim and has had a paid MSF lobbyist contact at least one state legislator in Idaho in order to get legislation in favor of getting the MSF programs introduced in the legislative process so as to be codified and recognized as the de jure program.

Edited by - gymnast on 07/02/2009 8:06 AM
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/02/2009 :  3:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast

Nigel A. In looking at Mark Browns Website for his school, I do not see any type of program that resembles what I envision a "Roadcraft program" to be. What I do see is a series of offerings consisting of MFS BRC and Dirt Bike schools, and some one or two day programs. What am I missing? There is some mention of private instruction however the details are not obvious. I also got the impression that Mark Brown while owning the school, is still working full time as a patrol officer. From what I saw of the motomark website, it was not what I was expecting.



In truth, having spoken to Mark Brown, and considering the US Bikesafe course was stimulated and therefore assumingly based on the original UK Bikesafe course, I assumed (and I am always saying that assumptions can be dangerous!) that it was automatically based on Roadcraft. In fact, during the conversation with Mark there was nothing to suggest that it wasn't. I haven't examined the website in depth so your perception may be more accurate than mine. If that is so then, yes, it is disappointing and one would need to devlve into looking at any reasons why Roadcaft as we think of it, was not adopted in the US Bikesafe program.
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Nigel A
Male Junior Member
68 Posts


TAUNTON, Somerset
United Kingdom

(None)

Formerly BMW 80RT

Posted - 07/02/2009 :  3:33 PM
rayg50 wrote:



Is the "D12 Manual cum programme" the same as "Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling".



If they are separate documents is the D12 manual available for purchase anywhere?'



They are similar but different, in the sense that Roadcraft, apart from reflecting police rider training, is also designed for buying off the bookshelves, so it is all encompassing, which is no bad thing in itself. But for those wanting the core building blocks which will directly improve their safety on the road RC has a lot of bells and whistles on it - useful in the long run but not necessary in the initial understanding and building stage, in my view. Because there is so much information, useful though it is, clearly seeing and understanding the core building blocks can easily get lost so D12 is an attempt to address this issue, but it is not putting down RC in any way.



I am principally a concepts and ideas person. My belief is, therefore, that it is better take the core building blocks, understand them well, apply sensibly and flexibly and you (almost automatically) cover all bases. Many advanced driving books and the like try to cover all the detail i.e. exactly how you deal with this junction (intersection to you) or that roundabout - what ever the detail of the situation happens to be. D12 essentially focuses on those key principles and building blocks in a simple progressive form to which all the bells and whistles in RC can be layered on top later on. By this means I hope that a better understanding of Roadcraft will also be achieved.



On positioning, the 1996 M/c Roadcraft does not, again in my view, go into the subject properly. I was very fortunate to know former instructors from the Devizes Police Driving School (now unfortunately defunct) where they worked with Safety, View and Stability as the underlying principles for sound positioning. To the best of my knowledge none of the other police driving schools did that, but I believe the Devizes got it absolutely right. So that is in D12, as is what I call the Basic Safety Position, which I learned when doing the British School of Motoring's (as it was then) High Performance Course, back in 1974. That alone has been an extremely useful, and indeed life-saving, feature for me over the years.



When I originally studied Roadcraft back in the 1960s I learned the System by rote; just took it out of the book, put the six points down on a piece of paper in vertical form viz: MC, MSB, G, MS, H, A1-A2 and put it in front of me on the dashboard of the car. I didn't understand it; I just learned it. Later I came understand how the components went together and that is where D12 comes from regarding System; it focuses on Position and Speed and then build the other elements around those. Then, for me, the whole thing fits into place very neatly. And so it goes on.



D12 is provided by the Taunton Group of RoSPA Advanced Drivers and Riders (RoADAR) via myself to trainees (associates) at a cost of 15.00 which I feel is, considering the content, good value for money (but then you would expect me to say that, wouldn't you?) As mentioned it is some 60 pages in length but, although that large, is designed to be taken in bite sized chunks; not to as a manual, as such.



D12 briefs the driver for each of the twelve drives and there should be approximately two weeks between each drive of about an hour's duration.



Best Wishes



Nigel

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