(Please visit one of our advertisers)

No donations or subscriptions are required

   OR   
   
Subscription choices:
Board Karma = 40  (3456 positive of 3838 votes is 40 %pts higher than a neutral 50%)
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle   
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

You can the entire collection of Safety Tip articles in a 33 Megabyte PDF Portfolio

 All Forums
 Motorcycle Safety
 General Discussion
 Stop Sign Technique
Next Page
Member Previous Topic Discussion Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

markstvn
Male Junior Member
28 Posts


Hampstead, MD
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sporster 883 Custom

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  9:32 AM                       Like
I was wondering how others handle stop signs. I know stop means stop, and that would mean putting your feet down, unless you can balance a stopped bike. I notice alot of riders slow to a few miles per hour, and take a look and go. I'm sure you could get a ticket for this. Should you always be putting your feet down and doing a total stop, and does a police officer give a different treatment to a bike vs. a car, as to a complete stop? I usually only do this myself at four way stops, and only after a complete and careful look. Just wondering what others actually do.

gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:04 AM
Stop means full stop, check traffic, and do not proceed until it is safe to do so. There are no exceptions in any vehicle code that I am aware of. Failure to come to a full stop and or proceeding before it is safe to do so is reason for a citation. Failure to put ones foot down is viewed by many traffic police officers as sufficient reason to issue a ticket. Far to many riders performing a "no foot down stop" are committed to "go" without checking traffic adequately. The foot down at a stop, double check traffic before proceeding is a desirable practice to minimize risk of a crash and/or a citation.
Go to Top of Page

scottrnelson
Advanced Member
6937 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, ID
USA

Honda

XR650L, 790 Adv R

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:16 AM
Normally when I come to a stop sign, my left foot gets placed flat on the ground for a second or two, then I proceed. If I'm feeling especially good at balancing and I can see that there is no cross traffic, I'll occasionally attempt a feet-up full stop, but if my balance isn't perfect I'll have to touch a foot down before continuing.

There is one stop sign that I occasionally encounter in the hills that is for a short one-lane section to go around a small rock slide. I've seen quite a few people check that there is no oncoming traffic and not even slow down there, since there is no traffic from the side and no place for a police officer to observe the incident. I still make a full stop there too.

It's good habit to actually make a stop at ALL stop signs.
Go to Top of Page

MattInFla
Male Senior Member
254 Posts
[Mentor]


Casselberry, FL
USA

Harley-Davidson

Electra Glide Classi

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:22 AM
Full stop, foot down, every time.

Matt
Go to Top of Page

aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1740 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:54 AM
I agree with putting at least one foot down after coming to a complete stop. In my opinion the place to practice stopping without putting one's feet down is in a parking lot or on a closed course, especially for a new rider.

I think that those who "slow and go" are not expecting hazards and may actually not recognize them even if they are present, because they have already committed mentally to proceeding.
Go to Top of Page

Ron
Male Starting Member
4 Posts


Detroit, MI
USA

Honda

VT1100C

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  12:16 PM
Full stop with both feet down. I agree with an earlier poster that anything else means you are not expecting to see any cross traffic. As riders who are familiar with "He came out of nowhere" we all know you will not see anything unless you expect it and look for it.
Go to Top of Page

SkootchNC
Male Advanced Member
1062 Posts
[Mentor]


raleigh, north carolina
USA

Harley-Davidson

road glide

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  2:04 PM
FULL stop..... bike in first gear, clutch in, LEFT foot down, right foot on the brake (unless conditions warrant both feet) a double check, because there are some "sneaky" drivers in "stealth cars" (humor)

Balancing acts are for the circus. Yes, I admit, I'm scanning for traffic BEFORE I come to a complete halt, but I still come to a complete and full foot down stop. As noted above, a motorcycle isn't "stopped" until there is a foot in contact with the pavement.

Police are just as likely to issue a ticket to a car, or a bike, and a motorcyclist, is in greater danger, if they proceed into the path of an oncoming vehicle (IMO)
Go to Top of Page

dhalen32
Male Moderator
846 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

BMW

R1200RT

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  2:07 PM
Markstvn:
Full stop, wheels not turning and at least the left foot down; sometimes both. Check intersecting traffic in both directions before proceeding. A motorcycle is no different from a vehicle code standpoint than any other and we should obey all of the rules; not just the ones we feel apply to motorcycles. Contrary to what we believe, we are not special!
Dave
Go to Top of Page

scottrnelson
Advanced Member
6937 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, ID
USA

Honda

XR650L, 790 Adv R

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  4:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SkootchNC

As noted above, a motorcycle isn't "stopped" until there is a foot in contact with the pavement.

That argument doesn't hold up in court. Once a motorcycle ceases all forward motion it's stopped whether or not you put a foot down.

I'm not recommending that anyone attempt a foot-up stop, but for those who have the balance to do so, it's still a full stop. And just for clarification, on the rare occasions when I attempt one, it's usually at a residential T-intersection where the base of the T is a short dead-end road and the only reason the stop sign is there is to reduce the speed of traffic in the neighborhood. Not an area where you'll ever get someone blowing through the other stop sign.
Go to Top of Page

gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  4:46 PM
Scott, is there a published opinion citing case law when a rider has been cited and claims that a safe feet up full stop was executed? I could not find one though that is not to say one does not exist. A foot down for at least a one count is in my opinion a pretty insurance policy against what may be in the opinion of some overzealous enforcement. I guess one could dozen or so foot up stops in front of a CHP patrol unit and develop a "finely tuned" expectation of the resulting action of the observing officer and their general attitude and actions towards the practice. Having observed a CHP Motor Officer o getting writers cramp on Mulholland Highway one Sunday afternoon, I inquired of him as to his criteria for a stop. He replied that a foot down and a one count was usually acceptable as long as the rider did not interfere with traffic already in motion. Of course, he did not cite a legal precedent for his explanation. However one may or may not exist.
Go to Top of Page

scottrnelson
Advanced Member
6937 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, ID
USA

Honda

XR650L, 790 Adv R

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  5:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gymnast

Scott, is there a published opinion citing case law when a rider has been cited and claims that a safe feet up full stop was executed?

All I have is what has been said by the Law Enforcement Officers who hang out in the LEO Forum on the Bay Area Riders Forum.

Here's one example for reference. Specifically note what was said in post #9.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/f...php?t=270604
Go to Top of Page

D R
Advanced Member
1053 Posts
[Mentor]


Northern, Virginia
USA

BMW

R1200RT

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  5:23 PM
At least one foot down, full stop.

However, continue to watch your six....

FLASHBACK (24 Dec 2003): I'm in my car doing last minute (second) Christmas shopping. I stopped at a T-intersection to verify traffic from the left and right. I see it's clear and just as I start to move, I'm bumped from behind. I put the car in park and get out to assess the damage. The woman driving the other car likewise is getting out. She speaks first (in a heavy, Scandinavian accent) and says,....

"Since the road was clear, I wasn't expecting you to stop."

This stated as we are standing in the shadow of the .... (wait for it...)

STOP SIGN!!!
Go to Top of Page

gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  5:24 PM
I put stopping with ones feet up in the same general category of situational questions such as "How much can one exceed the speed limit without being ticketed for speeding when passing another vehicle". A judge will render an opinion and one will either pay a fine or not. In most cases the individual defending their self will say something in answer to a question that the judge asks that results in the judge forming an opinion. Usually (however not always) the person cited will leave court after paying a fine and court costs not necessarily wiser, but poorer.
Go to Top of Page

SkootchNC
Male Advanced Member
1062 Posts
[Mentor]


raleigh, north carolina
USA

Harley-Davidson

road glide

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  9:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by scottrnelson

quote:
Originally posted by gymnast

Scott, is there a published opinion citing case law when a rider has been cited and claims that a safe feet up full stop was executed?

All I have is what has been said by the Law Enforcement Officers who hang out in the LEO Forum on the Bay Area Riders Forum.

Here's one example for reference. Specifically note what was said in post #9.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/f...php?t=270604




With all due respect to an unnamed motor officer on a Bay Area Forum.... in NORTH CAROLINA,
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Enacted..._20-158.html is rather vaguely worded, and there is no provisions for "time spent" at the full stop. 1 nano-second, or 3 seconds.... a stop is a stop is a stop.

However.... and I know this is "hair-splitting" the NCDMV "motorcycle handbook" (taken from the MSF) http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/driver_ser...Handbook.pdf on page 22 clearly shows the rider's foot in contact with the ground.

While there is NO writen statement that the foot is required, I see no statement that a foot down is optional.

As "Gymnast" asked.... is there published case law? or just forum opinion from one motor officer?

as always thanks for sharing
Frank
Go to Top of Page

aidanspa
Male Advanced Member
1740 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

Harley-Davidson

Road King

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  9:54 PM
I am having a difficult time understanding why we are speculating on the legality of not making a complete foot-down stop at a stop sign. As others have said quite plainly, STOP means STOP. If the sign says STOP or the light is solid or flashing red, you STOP, unless a LEO at the intersection directs you to do otherwise.

That said, in my opinion, it is lazy to not stop completely at a stop sign. It is cutting corners. I suspect that a rider who rolls through or barely stops, without double checking for hazards, cuts corners in other aspects of his riding behavior as well. He depends on luck to make it home in one piece. That will work just fine until it doesn't.

My .02

Edited by - aidanspa on 06/30/2009 10:05 PM
Go to Top of Page

vivid dadas
Senior Member
285 Posts


Columbus, OH
USA

Suzuki

V-Strom 650DL

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:10 PM
On the motorcycle, I stop, put my feet down, and look both ways and check my mirrors. If there is an incline, I may have my right foot on the brake.

In the car I might coast through while looking.
Go to Top of Page

Biffinator
Female Junior Member
77 Posts


Castle Rock, CO
USA

BMW

F650GS

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  10:42 PM
There have been times when I can come to a complete stop and balance the bike without putting down a foot. When I have done this, it's been at a place where there is hardly ever another car coming (like in my neighborhood out in the country). Also when I've done this, I expected to be able to do a quick complete stop and then go. There was a time or two when a car did happen to be coming (not so close that I would risk hitting it, mind you), and stupid as it was, I was mentally unprepared and ended up having to do a hard stop which jerked my forward and I was forced to put down my foot. Now I always do a complete stop with at least one foot down. Always.
Go to Top of Page

D R
Advanced Member
1053 Posts
[Mentor]


Northern, Virginia
USA

BMW

R1200RT

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  4:20 AM
More and more these days, I've noticed the majority of drivers approach a stop sign with the expectation they will be able to blow right through it. This is noticeable by the way a car approaches the stop sign at a high rate of speed (relative for the road they are on), only to slam on their brakes when they finally observe cross traffic and end up halfway out into your lane.

Bottom line: approach all intersections with the expectation the other car has no plans to stop. If/when they do stop, assume they either won't see you or won't care about you.
Go to Top of Page

rayg50
Male Moderator
2083 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Peer Review: 1

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  6:11 AM
In the city proper I very rarely see a stop sign being run intentionally (ah, cell phones). Outside of the city in the smaller towns is another story. I only see the stop being made in the heavy traffic areas. Go into the residential areas, in those towns, and they do not even slow down and take the sign as they would a yield. I had a friend, who lives in one such town, ask my why I was stopping at the stop signs.

I actually got to see one accident, in front of her house, on a street where 2 cars a century pass. Those 2 cars got to meet. It was an "ALL" stop. Each of the 4 corners had a stop sign. Both cars ran their stop. The moment I saw an ALL stop in so lightly travelled an area I should have had bells going off. My mind now when seeing an ALL stop goes into high alert. There is a reason for the investment in 2 additional signs and in this instance it definitely was not to help traffic flow.

Before I gained comfort in driving with traffic I sought the suburbs to get away from the madness of city traffic. I quickly stopped that. The quantity of cars in the city adds risk but at least the huge majority of them observe the traffic laws. Not so the suburbs.

Everyone I know who learned to drive in NYC knows the double stop. One at the stop sign for 2 seconds for the LEOs and the second when you have pulled even with the parked cars so that you can see traffic and so that they can see you. That second stop is the one that counts since you do it for safety. I feel less threatened at intersections with stop signs for the other traffic in the city than I do outside of it. I still worry about being seen but at least I know they are stopped and looking.

I make the double stop. The first with both feet down at the sign. The second even (in line) with parked cars, the left foot down, throttle up just a touch, the right foot on the rear brake holding the bike in place light pressure on the front brake, ready for quick acceleration.

Give me city streets over suburban streets for safety any day of the week.

my .02


Edited by - rayg50 on 07/01/2009 6:37 AM
Go to Top of Page

greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  7:13 AM
I do the double stop also. I got pulled over once for stopping beyond the painted line. I told the officer about the double stop and he let me off with a warning. I got the impression he wasn't watching when I was making the first one. Anyhow, I don't believe how many posts have been made on the subject. The stop is to give the rider/driver a chance to evaluate traffic. If the focus is on getting the wheels stopped without putting a foot down, that focus is in the wrong place and there's not a lot of evaluation going on.
Go to Top of Page

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17362 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  8:18 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
It is true that this topic has generated more interest than I expected. It's possible that the reason for it is that there are things to learn from the discussion. For example, though the vast majority of times that I encounter a stop sign, and ALWAYS when I'm riding solo, I will come to a full, both feet down, stop before moving on, I confess that I have done a full stop with no feet down, in particular when I am riding drag behind Cash - who has done the both feet down version. Sometimes I do a dab of the left foot to the ground to satisfy any possible LEO interest. But I have never even heard of the 'double stop' until this thread!!!

Let me explain that rather long and convoluted statement.

When Cash and I are riding as a group of two she is always the lead rider. She comes to a complete, two feet down, stop as I am slowing to a stop right next to her. If she has not begun moving by the time I get to a complete stop, it's because there is a reason! I put both feet down and wait for her lead.

If, when I come to a full stop she has begun moving, I will usually just dab my left foot down and then, if it is still clear, move on.

If she starts to move before I dab my foot down, and it is clear, I MAY not dab that foot down and follow her. We are, invariably, still next to each other at that time. The idea is that we save everybody some time if we get through that intersection as if we were a single vehicle. And, I assure you that neither of us moves into an intersection without EACH of us having done a head check followed by a confirmation head check.

This behavior is the result of years of riding in relatively large groups (of up to 8 bikes) where we insured that we always stopped abreast of each other and then the first two bikes would enter the intersaction as if they were one vehicle (at the same time) spreading out (attaining some seperation) within the intersection, while the rest of the group moves up to AND STOPS at the stop sign. The next set of two riders would do the same as the first pair, and so on.

Still, the idea of putting both feet down at every stop makes sense to me and I am going to make every effort to change the way I deal with a stop sign while riding with her in our group rides.

Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Discussion Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
Jump To:
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle © Master Strategy Group Go To Top Of Page
  This page was generated in 0.49 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05