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 How do you do a very slow speed stop on a right hand curve
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2083 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  8:37 AM                       Like
Wind chill had our temps at about 37F so I took the bike out for a maintenance run. It is a half hour or less ride to let the lubricants circulate. It is a leisurely winding ride through the lesser traffic regulated streets (few lights and stop signs) of our industrial areas. There are spots where the road curves to a T intersection which has a light or stop sign. The approach speed to these intersections is minimal since I know the stops are there. When the road curves to the right on the approach the bike is "weighted" to the right. By weighted I mean that if I just stopped and kept my feet on the pegs the bike would tip to the right.

In bringing the bike to a stop I use the rear brake, therefore the right foot. On occasion I have not shifted (weaved) the bike's weight to the left at the stop and have been forced to complete the stop with the front brake so that I could put the right foot down. No danger involved since I straighten the front tire and am close to zero mph at that point.

Is there an approach / method that will make sure that the weight is left of center when the bike stops?

greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  10:19 AM
You could use the last foot or so of travel to shift the weight. The amount of travel needed is small compared to the width of the lane. There is almost no need to use the rear brake for the final moment of stopping though. Unless the road surface is ridiculously slippery, just using the front brake for the last foot or so is fine.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  11:26 AM
Are you concerned with a nasty crown in the road? If so, knowing it's there basically solves your problem.

The bike is balanced as you stop? Straight up and down. Simply put the left down first and lean gently on that side as you stand there.

I actually believe this is a good example of why, under normal braking, you should be downshifting to 1st gear. IF you were on an abnormally crowned road and stop in 2nd gear, you have to pick up the UPHILL foot to downshift to 1st to leave.

Now that I've thought about it--is that the problem? Lifting the left foot while stopped on a crown?
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SteveS
Male Advanced Member
1208 Posts
[Mentor]


Toronto, Ontario
Canada

Harley-Davidson

2018 Tri-Gliide

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  11:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

....... There are spots where the road curves to a T intersection which has a light or stop sign. The approach speed to these intersections is minimal since I know the stops are there. When the road curves to the right on the approach the bike is "weighted" to the right. By weighted I mean that if I just stopped and kept my feet on the pegs the bike would tip to the right.

In bringing the bike to a stop I use the rear brake, therefore the right foot. On occasion I have not shifted (weaved) the bike's weight to the left at the stop and have been forced to complete the stop with the front brake so that I could put the right foot down. No danger involved since I straighten the front tire and am close to zero mph at that point.

Is there an approach / method that will make sure that the weight is left of center when the bike stops?




Why not use both brakes when you need to brake? Then as you come up to the last three feet or so, straighten the front wheel, release the rear brake as you come to "stand still upright" and plant your right foot if that is what you want to do?

Seems the difficulty is caused by using the rear brake where it is not called for.
At least that is the way it sounds from your description rayg50.
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  11:56 AM
Also, the road bank has nothing to do with the balance of your bike. It's what you are doing that affects the attitude of the bike. The bank can confuse your brain as vision is involved with balance but that's about it. It's your unfamiliarity with the condition that is causing the difficulty. The cure is practice.
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2083 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  2:11 PM
I guess my question is one of technique, kind of a fine tuning.

Usually just before coming to a stop (the last 2-4 feet) on a right hand curve I start a weave motion which shifts the bikes weight to the left. This lets me stop with the rear brake and only put the left foot down. On occasion the bike will come to a stop before the weight has shifted and I will find myself having to put the right foot down. It is not a "catch" the bike motion since the bike is just short of upright. I have no doubt that whoever is behind me would think that putting the right foot down was part of the plan. It is not.

Perhaps my question should have been is it normal, on occasion, to find yourself putting the right foot down when you had intended to use the left.

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rkfire
Advanced Member
1719 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  2:54 PM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
I leave it to the circumstance, which foot, or even both that I set down. Hills, holes, wind, sand etc decide for me. Two feet sometimes, and about always with a passenger. I'm not sure it's all that great idea to try to insist a particular foot goes down.

There was a long discussion, about a year ago about 2 feet down.
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  3:32 PM
About the only time it's necessary to drop a particular foot first is on ice and snow, if the bike has a foot clutch or there is a dip in the surface your foot can't reach and still hold the bike up. I will sometimes practice by choosing one foot or another ahead of time so I'll be ready for that dip.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  5:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

About the only time it's necessary to drop a particular foot first is on ice and snow, if the bike has a foot clutch or there is a dip in the surface your foot can't reach and still hold the bike up. I will sometimes practice by choosing one foot or another ahead of time so I'll be ready for that dip.



THIS. MSF and others teach "left down" because they're also preaching braking with the rear to a complete stop. Unfortunately that leads to a "I must always put my left down first" mentality that can be rather fixed.

Situational awareness should dictate which one goes down. There are situations where right makes sense and others where left makes sense. have, in the course of instruction seen very clearly as riders learning to brake will put the Right foot down first and it's clear that their rate of deceleration changes as they stop braking with the right foot. Hence, believes me, they are taught in perfect circumstances to complete braking with the right and deploy the left for stability on stopping.

That said, for me, unless there's something odd going on, it's gonna be left.
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  5:45 PM
Unless something odd is going on or I'm practicing a specific foot, I'm using both feet. I used to be an MSF instructor and the one footed stop was something we, thankfully, did not teach. Either it was local, I wasn't taught properly or it came after I left. I also have seen plenty of student wobbling at one footed stops when I think instilling confidence with a centrally balanced two footed stop would be a better idea. I don't use the kill switch to turn the bike off either. The idea that a person feels better balanced on two feet is basic to my nature.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  7:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

Unless something odd is going on or I'm practicing a specific foot, I'm using both feet. I used to be an MSF instructor and the one footed stop was something we, thankfully, did not teach. Either it was local, I wasn't taught properly or it came after I left. I also have seen plenty of student wobbling at one footed stops when I think instilling confidence with a centrally balanced two footed stop would be a better idea. I don't use the kill switch to turn the bike off either. The idea that a person feels better balanced on two feet is basic to my nature.



The RSS had the left down first in it's last version of that curriculum and I'm not sure what the BRC teaches but I believe it's left down first. In my experience it seems that riders that deploy both feet before coming to a complete stop are sloppier than those engaging only one. They come in, their feet come off and they are considerably more 'disconnected' from the bike and get pretty wobbly.

As far at the kill switch the last RSS standard was to use the kill switch and keep both hands on the bars to control the bike...not sure how that's germane though...
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  7:56 PM
The kill switch thing is just about teaching unimportant stuff like it's important. The bike should be nearly stopped before feet come off the pegs. It's getting a foot or two off the pegs and contacting the road before the bike is stopped that is hoppy sloppy. When my feet touch the road, they stay where they first touch.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  8:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by greywolf

The kill switch thing is just about teaching unimportant stuff like it's important. The bike should be nearly stopped before feet come off the pegs. It's getting a foot or two off the pegs and contacting the road before the bike is stopped that is hoppy sloppy. When my feet touch the road, they stay where they first touch.



I never realized the importance of using the kill switch until I had my first Sportster launched at me during an ERC. Gal just took her left hand off the running motorcycle in order to reach for the key--luckily I got out of the way.

In other situations I didn't realize the importance of concentrating on foot up braking until I started realizing that a shocking amount of first time learners insist on trying to finish their stops on motorcycles like they stop their bicycles; by completing the braking cycle with their feet--Flintstone style.

I don't think there's disagreement between us, AND I think you've hooked onto an important issue that is germane to this particular situation: rigidity of philosophy. Often "the MSF teaches" becomes "in every single situation you HAVE to".

I would offer that rather than "Both" or "Right First" or "Left First" that the situation should dictate behavior. Crown will play into it. Surface conditions. Whether you intend to turn or go straight may play into it.

Perhaps part of the original problem was "trying to do it juuust right" as opposed to doing what works.

I mean, really, you got it done and didn't crash--isn't that success?
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  9:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CaptCrash

I don't think there's disagreement between us, AND I think you've hooked onto an important issue that is germane to this particular situation: rigidity of philosophy. Often "the MSF teaches" becomes "in every single situation you HAVE to".

I would offer that rather than "Both" or "Right First" or "Left First" that the situation should dictate behavior. Crown will play into it. Surface conditions. Whether you intend to turn or go straight may play into it.

Those are the main points as I see them and I totally agree with your position on them.
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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2273 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  3:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CaptCrash

Often "the MSF teaches" becomes "in every single situation you HAVE to".

I would offer that rather than "Both" or "Right First" or "Left First" that the situation should dictate behavior. Crown will play into it. Surface conditions. Whether you intend to turn or go straight may play into it.

Perhaps part of the original problem was "trying to do it juuust right" as opposed to doing what works.

I mean, really, you got it done and didn't crash--isn't that success?



This makes sense and maybe that thought will be transferred to students who will go on to make their own decisions for the situations they encounter. It amazes me that in these times, instructors or curriculum would not uniformly identify this at the end of most sections or each day. Not only will they be faced with making their own decisions, but they will be expected to. Why not tell them? I think a crowned road or a drop off the surface on one side is a perfect example of knowing to be flexible and not locked into trained-brain book smart defaults that can be the cause of getting them hurt.

The other thought is the idea of trying to do it just right or not being sure what is right or best. Thank you CaptCrash. This made me think of the way I ride and my typical choices I'm comfortable with.
Whether those techniques or habits are correct or not, I choose to do much or my recreational road rides with one or two others that comprise our small group. Doing so creates a great network of communication, debate, critique, rebuttal, even some embarrassing food fights in public eateries ... but the point is, even if you choose to ride solo always and forever, just think about how you would reply or defend your choices or habits if another rider asked you about it/them. That may help keep your objectivity close at hand. For other mysteries, or welcomed input just post it here like rayg50!

At many stop lines in the city, if it's a decision on left or right foot, most often it's based on where the oil, trans fluid or coolant blots are located since I won't park on them.

~brian
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rayg50
Male Moderator
2083 Posts
[Mentor]


NYC, NY
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750DC

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  6:22 AM
I agree with the points raised.

I still have not clearly gotten the question across. This is not a right wrong question but rather one of technique. I do not feel that putting the right foot down or both feet down or left foot down are in competition for being correct. I do all three all the time. But (you knew that was coming) if I approach the stop with the intention of putting a particular foot down and am "forced" to put the other down I view it as a flawed stop. The only thing flawed about the stop is that it does not result in what I intended.

I was curious to find out if this is a "it happens to everyone" or if there is a technique better than the one I use.

Ray
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17396 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  6:55 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
Perhaps part of the original problem was "trying to do it juuust right" as opposed to doing what works.

I mean, really, you got it done and didn't crash--isn't that success?

I soooo agree with CaptCrash's message here.

When I write about techniques and methods I usually add this thought:
Function is far more important than form - you do what you have to do, regardless of how it looks. It's the 'doing' that counts, not the 'style'.
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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2273 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  6:59 AM
I view it as 'my norm is ----' and I will improvise as necessary especially when I approach something with my 'default' in mind and have to improvise at the last moment due to a hidden pot hole, puddle of goo or whatever it may be. I don't see this as flawed but as a survival reality.
Be flexible and expect the unexpected.

If rider style has them doing a left, a right and/or both for no specific reason, IMO, their lack of consistency (technique) is flawed and that indecision will spill into all else and muddle things up.

~brian

Edited by - bachman1961 on 11/29/2010 7:01 AM
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Razzoo
Male Senior Member
317 Posts


Phenix City, Al
USA

Triumph

Sprint & HD XLH1200S

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  7:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

I agree with the points raised.

I still have not clearly gotten the question across. This is not a right wrong question but rather one of technique. I do not feel that putting the right foot down or both feet down or left foot down are in competition for being correct. I do all three all the time. But (you knew that was coming) if I approach the stop with the intention of putting a particular foot down and am "forced" to put the other down I view it as a flawed stop. The only thing flawed about the stop is that it does not result in what I intended.

I was curious to find out if this is a "it happens to everyone" or if there is a technique better than the one I use.

Ray



I also select the foot to put down ahead of time and if things don't work as expected I consider it a failure. I have ridden a bike with a foot clutch for about a month and that makes you very aware, (especially if your normal default is left foot down).
My son is a new rider, and the what fot to put down discussion has come up. Talking it over with a novice has given me a different perspecive.
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Razzoo
Male Senior Member
317 Posts


Phenix City, Al
USA

Triumph

Sprint & HD XLH1200S

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  11:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rayg50

I agree with the points raised.

I still have not clearly gotten the question across. This is not a right wrong question but rather one of technique. I do not feel that putting the right foot down or both feet down or left foot down are in competition for being correct. I do all three all the time. But (you knew that was coming) if I approach the stop with the intention of putting a particular foot down and am "forced" to put the other down I view it as a flawed stop. The only thing flawed about the stop is that it does not result in what I intended.

I was curious to find out if this is a "it happens to everyone" or if there is a technique better than the one I use.

Ray



I also select the foot to put down ahead of time and if things don't work as expected I consider it a failure. I have ridden a bike with a foot clutch for about a month and that makes you very aware, (especially if your normal default is left foot down).
My son is a new rider, and the what fot to put down discussion has come up. Talking it over with a novice has given me a different perspecive.
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staticattic
Male Senior Member
410 Posts


Tampa, FL
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  2:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

When I write about techniques and methods I usually add this thought:
Function is far more important than form - you do what you have to do, regardless of how it looks. It's the 'doing' that counts, not the 'style'.



"I didn't fall. I was stopping with style."
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