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 Motorcycle Safety
 General Discussion
 GPS unit for crash data recording?
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17377 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  7:16 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend                        Like
I have no real idea how GPS navigation systems work except as a user, but it seems to me that they may well be used as an extremely valuable 'black box' (crash data recorder.)

If they have any form of memory capability so that location, time, speed and distance information can be recovered from the devices (for at least the last 5 or 10 seconds before a crash, for example), then court cases are efficiently short-circuited (one party cannot claim he was going at the 30 mph speed limit when his GPS device shows he was going 53 mph), and the exact location (within a few feet) of an accident is never in question or left to the best guess of a policeman who prepares an accident report and elects to use local landmarks for reference (that may cease to exist over time.)

Finally, as more and more people carry highly intelligent iPhone-like devices, there might not even be a need for the vehicle involved in a collision to have a surviving GPS device so long as the smart phone does.

Just some fanciful random thoughts to play with.

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17377 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  8:14 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Well, it took all of a few minutes of effort with google to find an iPhone black box app has already been written.

http://www.whathifi.com/News/iPhone...-everything/
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  10:06 AM
Here is a search that relates to "ECM crash data pre recorded". The ECMs (Engine Control Modules) in all vehicles currently sold in the US have a data record regarding vehicle systems and status on board.

http://www.google.com/search?q=ecm+...nt=firefox-a

And,

"Pre Crash Data Recorded By ECM"

http://www.google.com/search?q=pre+...nt=firefox-a

Also of possible interest, "Motorcycle pre crash data recorded by ECM"

http://www.google.com/search?q=Moto...nt=firefox-a



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(Deleted or Lost)

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  11:26 AM
However, since I own my vehicles, my GPS's and my phones, I believe the constitutional protections against 'self incrimination' should apply. In other words, I cannot be required to disclose their data, or surrender them, without immunity from prosecution...
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staticattic
Male Senior Member
410 Posts


Tampa, FL
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  1:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Meromorph

However, since I own my vehicles, my GPS's and my phones, I believe the constitutional protections against 'self incrimination' should apply. In other words, I cannot be required to disclose their data, or surrender them, without immunity from prosecution...



Yeah, but if the "other guy" is pointing his finger at you as the guilty party and he is willing to give up his GPS or smart phone, you may not have a choice.

My Magellan GPS or iPhone may not be accurate enough to pin point my location exactly, but they are pretty darn close. My Magellan can sense when I am sitting still and suggest alternate routes, presumably guessing I am stuck in traffic. I would think with a little computer savvy configuring, one would be able to "rewind" a GPS a few seconds. I have hacked my Magellan and uploaded some cool toys to it, even a "flight recorder." So, it is definitely possible.

I use MotionX GPS on my iPhone. It can not only plan routes, but it will keep up with my current speed, my top speed, and time. Not only that, but it will send updates to my Facebook page with "snapshots" of my current location at predetermined intervals. I used to take advantage of that feature when I would take the bike out for a cruise. I would have it update my wife so in the event of something bad happening, she would at least know where I was.

Not sure if elements concerning speed are available to Apple engineers, but I use MobileMe to locate my iPhone. As a regular Joe user, I can only track my iPhone's location. It might take a court order, but I would bet the guys at Apple could get more information such as speed and maybe deceleration. Data like that though, would be based on how fast an iPhone "refreshes" its location.

The idea of a navigation based "black box" is entirely possible. I would guess that a cell phone based navigation system would be better because it could "upload" data to the Internet or cell towers. In the event the device was destroyed in the collision, the data would still survive.
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  3:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Meromorph

However, since I own my vehicles, my GPS's and my phones, I believe the constitutional protections against 'self incrimination' should apply. In other words, I cannot be required to disclose their data, or surrender them, without immunity from prosecution...



A couple of pertinent examples,
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/...chnology.pdf
and
http://www.lindjensen.com/CM/Articl...tigation.pdf
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DataDan
Advanced Member
585 Posts
[Mentor]


Central Coast, CA
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  4:36 PM
This is something I found in 2003 and posted in a USENET group. It's from the Ventura County (CA) Star.


A Camarillo man was arrested late Thursday after he allegedly led authorities on a motorcycle chase that reached speeds of up to 130 mph...

The bike was...equipped with a global positioning system that showed its top speed had been 140 mph within the last 243 miles.


Unfortunately, I trimmed it for brevity so I don't have further details, and the link is now stale. I don't have anything subsequent about adjudication.
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greywolf
Male Moderator
1484 Posts
[Mentor]


Evanston, IL
USA

Suzuki

DL650AL2

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  5:19 PM
That's worthless though. I've seen top speeds on GPS units reporting motorcycle speeds exceeding the sound barrier. Reports over a time span may be very accurate but instant glitches can be way off.
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sporty
Senior Member
338 Posts


north liberty, ia
USA

Harley-Davidson

Dyna & Sportster

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  9:59 PM
Well, in the boat I've a couple of Garmins
that will record xyzd&t (longitude, latitude,
altitude, depth and time). From this you
can derive speed, averaged over the last second.

As mentioned several times earlier, why would
you surrender you 5th amendment rights unless, of
course, the GPS data supports your position.

Has anyone here used information, such as from a
GPS, in traffic court to contest a speeding or other
similar complaint filed by LEO? (any issues introducing
you data into evidence?)


-W
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17377 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  10:30 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
You meant 4th amendment rights, of course.
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bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2272 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 11/30/2010 :  1:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by The Meromorph

However, since I own my vehicles, my GPS's and my phones, I believe the constitutional protections against 'self incrimination' should apply. In other words, I cannot be required to disclose their data, or surrender them, without immunity from prosecution...



' should apply ' ... okay, I hope that works for you !

In the mean time, (I) might not surrender something because "I don't have one" .. with me that I know of.

As for courtroom drama, if you reside in an area where Big Tobacco lost some ground twenty-some years ago, there may be more than a handful of lawyers there with not much gong on.

Whisperer the words Constitutionally protection impaired then time them and count how many come running to offer assistance.

~brian

Edited by - bachman1961 on 11/30/2010 2:00 AM
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kacinpa
Male Advanced Member
802 Posts
[Mentor]


Lansdale, PA
USA

Triumph

Sprint GT

Posted - 11/30/2010 :  7:52 AM
Just a thought on the whole legal aspects associated with the data gathered in vehicle "Black Box" systems.

While I'm not a lawyer...My wife HAS totaled a couple of cars!

Typically when a vehicle is totaled, in order to receive the pay-off from the insurance company you first have to sign over ownership of the vehicle to them. At that point it is no longer YOUR vehicle but the insurance company's. At that point, since they have likely paid out substantial funds on the claim, they can access that "black box" and have that data analyzed.
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TonicBIA
Male Senior Member
382 Posts


Arlington, Va
USA

Triumph

Sprint ST

Posted - 11/30/2010 :  11:08 PM
GPS systems are great but not nearly infallible. Mine will on again off again lose reception for a short, or sometimes long period of time. If I'm still moving when it happens (mountain riding) then once it gets a good reading again it calculates the speed I'd need to go from my last location to my current location.

Even if you give up your data, it's going to be hard for someone to claim it's accuracy when it says your top speed is 644 mph. That was an actual reading after playing around near Seneca Rocks WV with my Zumo 550.... no wonder no one caught up to me
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Cash Anthony
Female Administrator
1470 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, Texas
USA

Honda

Magna 750

Posted - 12/01/2010 :  1:03 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Kacinpa wrote
quote:
While I'm not a lawyer...My wife HAS totaled a couple of cars!

Best laugh I've had today!


Cash
a/k/a ECA, Esquire
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scottrnelson
Advanced Member
6949 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, ID
USA

Honda

XR650L, 790 Adv R

Posted - 12/02/2010 :  3:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by TonicBIA

That was an actual reading after playing around near Seneca Rocks WV with my Zumo 550.... no wonder no one caught up to me

I also have a Zumo 550 and it definitely takes a few seconds to stabilize when accelerating or decelerating, and is pretty worthless for speed readouts below about 5 mph.

I was hoping to get a 500 mph reading recently by turning it on in a 737, but it couldn't get the satellite signals through the aluminum skin of the airplane.
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sporty
Senior Member
338 Posts


north liberty, ia
USA

Harley-Davidson

Dyna & Sportster

Posted - 12/10/2010 :  6:41 AM
quote:

I was hoping to get a 500 mph reading recently by turning it on in a 737, but it couldn't get the satellite signals through the aluminum skin of the airplane.



I've used the eTrex in a commercial plane (next to window),
but it wouldn't achieve lock in a Lear Jet...

-W
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Daddio
Male Advanced Member
775 Posts
[Mentor]


Calera, AL
USA

Suzuki

Bandit 1250

Posted - 12/10/2010 :  7:48 AM
I also have tried the little receiver that comes with Streets and Trips in a plane. It failed to get a satellite signal even when suction cupped to a window.

I am glad that my unit was not required for crash data analysis
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staticattic
Male Senior Member
410 Posts


Tampa, FL
USA

Honda

Shadow Spirit 750

Posted - 12/10/2010 :  4:13 PM
I haven't tried it, but supposedly the reason why a hand held or car GPS will not work in a plane is because they don't lock on to as many satellites as a military grade or airplane grade GPS does. Moving around 500mph, the speed is just too fast for a regular Joe GPS to lock on to a signal. I have always wanted to try it, but I have been afraid a stewardess would see me and confiscate it.

IRT the original topic, even though it has a "Big Brother" feel (and I am all for sticking it to the man), I like the idea that I can track my phone no matter where it is. It might not be accurate enough for crash data in a court case, but still it is pretty cool.
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