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Young Dai
 Junior Member
67 Posts
Southend, Essex
United Kingdom
Honda
ST1100a
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 Posted - 01/29/2016 : 5:40 AM
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Like most UK Police Forces, the Met run a Bikesafe programme.
They run from 4 locations and because of Transport for London (TfL) support the cost of the day is only ?45. http://www.bikesafe-london.co.uk/co...s/index.html
My IAM group from Essex did the North side Bikesafe at the ACE Cafe a few years ago and I believe had an enjoyable and educational time.
So what ?
Well in the new funding round TfL have introduced the option where companies located within the TfL region; (basically contained within the M25 ring) can register with them to become a 'Bikesafe Organisation'.
If this is granted the business is issued with a reference number, which when quoted when you book a Met Bikesafe course then means TfL fully subsidise the cost .
That's right, a free course or a saving of the cost of around 9 gallons (imperial) of petrol.
I assume that if you are self employed you can't benefit from this and obviously your employer actually has to have business premises in the TfL region.
I had a word with the work's HR team , stressing the world class reputation of the event, the affect it had had on P2W KSI figures in London and hinting darkly about the duty of care requirements for Employers. And before you could say boo, Robert was the brother of my mother
They signed up and now the potential 300-odd riders in our London offices now have the option of attending a free course.
Your mileage might vary, but put the memo up what have you got to loose ?
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SkootchNC
Advanced Member
1062 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 01/29/2016 : 8:15 AM
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North Carolina State Highway Patrol (NCSHP) sent Sgt Mark Brown to become a certified instructor. Since 2007 NCSHP has offered their version of a "Rider Skill Day" for free.
Since the pilot program many county and municipalities have been certified across the US.
http://www.bikesafenc.com/ A free class, riding with, and being observed by motor officers. A short morning classroom lesson, followed by a short ride, then a brief officer/rider evaluation. Lunch, another class, another ride, and finally another evaluation.
Whether the UK, and US versions are identical or not, I can't say. But I can say the class is informative, and well worth the day's investment |
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Young Dai
Junior Member
67 Posts
Southend, Essex
United Kingdom
Honda
ST1100a
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Posted - 01/29/2016 : 10:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SkootchNC
Whether the UK, and US versions are identical or not, I can't say.
Pretty much, a bit like the difference between 'My Way' sung by Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra..... The words are the same , but the phasing is different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L180bhYy_1g
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commonground
Standard Member
155 Posts
Windsor, PA
USA
Yamaha
V Star 1300
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Posted - 01/30/2016 : 8:09 AM
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| In watching your video in the attached link I have a question. Do the instructors feel that it is safe for a trailing motorcyclist to be so close to the lead motorcyclist as shown in the video. I would be very uncomfortable having the lead guy inside of my safety bubble. Just saying. Augie |
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts
Stratford, CT
USA
Suzuki
Bandit
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Posted - 01/30/2016 : 9:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by commonground
In watching your video in the attached link I have a question. Do the instructors feel that it is safe for a trailing motorcyclist to be so close to the lead motorcyclist as shown in the video. I would be very uncomfortable having the lead guy inside of my safety bubble. Just saying. Augie
I didn't like that either. By my estimation, it was 1 second or less spacing, and he often wasn't even staggered.
One other thing was, the instructor several times talked about the rider using the brake when it wasn't necessary, usually coming to a curve. He remarked that the rider should have been in a lower gear instead.
The only group rides that I do regularly is with my brother, and his bike has quite a bit of engine braking, so when he might slow for whatever reason, I can encroach into the spacing before I realize he's slowing. I'd rather a touch of the brake light to give me a heads up. A little touch would do, then continue with engine braking if you'd like.
I think the same curtesy might be helpful even if the following vehicle is not a motorcycle. |
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commonground
Standard Member
155 Posts
Windsor, PA
USA
Yamaha
V Star 1300
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Posted - 01/30/2016 : 12:04 PM
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| They obviously do not recommend "Trail Braking". |
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Young Dai
Junior Member
67 Posts
Southend, Essex
United Kingdom
Honda
ST1100a
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 4:11 AM
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The police rider is pursuit trained, therefore he will be looking quiet a bit further down the road than a 'standard' civi-rider adjusting his riding plan not only for his hazards but also for the hazards affecting the rider under observation.
Parts of the London press are quiet actively both anti-police and anti -motorcycle, yet I have never heard of a 'pol-smash' reported on a bikesafe event. On that basis closeness of the vehicles in traffic I don't think has caused an issue
There is a difference between 'comfort braking' and 'trail braking', not the least of which is a length of time the red light is showing to the following vehicle and the place on the bend where light shows. A few second dab maybe taking a couple of miles off the entry speed is not trail braking.
From my own experience nearly 10 years ago on one of these courses, the decision of the observer to give the :
"Have you considered the advantages of being in a lower gear",
talk would be based on a basket of observations, including road positioning,confidence , the acceleration and deceleration of the bike going into and leaving road hazards etc. So not just based on dabbing the back brake as you came into the corner
If I had another vehicle up my chuff, (on my 6) then that would mean that I would change my riding plan, including giving more deliberate and earlier braking signals, but in the normal course of events not so much.... But that is a UK consideration and YMMV
For completeness / full disclosure, the one section of the video that I did expect to cause comment was the recommendation of Offsiding as a means of improving the view... That has been the subject of much ink and anguish in the UK motorcycle community and generally it is not encouraged or spoken of as much as it was.
At road legal speeds there is very little to be gained from offsiding and that is what is what is now being taught. Yes you can do it but there would need to be a reason I.e it formed part of your plan to make your ride safer and smoother. If after doing it you think to yourself "I'm not sure if I gained anything there" then it was probably pointless. After several times doing this you'll realise there isn't much benefit to be had. ...
AGAIN THIS IS IN THE UK ENVIRONMENT AND I MAKE NO RECOMMENDATION FOR NON-UK RIDERS OR READERS OF THIS FORUM .
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts
Stratford, CT
USA
Suzuki
Bandit
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 7:27 AM
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I think, you're either looking down the road, OR immediately in front of you. You might go back and forth between the two.
To be clear, I was not talking about trail braking, and not necessarily braking at all, rather a touch to light the brake light.
There were times, especially on narrow roads, lined with shrub or trees, with bend after bend. that the following bike was directly behind the leading bike, and in line with it, not staggered. It was hard to be precise, but I think there was times when 1/2 second or so distance between them.
Could there be a private driveway, a hazard in the road, wildlife, kid chasing a ball, causing the leading rider to brake hard? I wouldn't gamble on it.
Could it even impact the leading rider, if since he has a rider behind him so close, that if he needed to brake hard, would he be reluctant to brake effectively for fear of getting rear ended?
I'd rather let the leading rider know I will always give him the space to allow him to safely do whatever he needs to do.
I'm not getting the UK reference. Isn't safe riding universal?
For reference, my brother rides a BMW 1150r and I a Suzuki Bandit 1200. We've switched bikes, and both of us were astonished by the difference in engine braking. His bike was like applying the brakes when you roll off the throttle, my bike felt as though rolling off the throttle had NO effect. |
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DataDan
Advanced Member
582 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Yamaha
FJR1300
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 9:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Young Dai
Like most UK Police Forces, the Met run a Bikesafe programme.
What an excellent opportunity for motorcyclists! Thanks for posting that, Young Dai. And SkootchNC, I'd be interested in hearing more about the North Carolina version.
While the instructor's following distance might be unnerving at first, I don't see it as a safety issue. He can see and react to everything the student can and has a great deal of experience doing just that.
Young Dai: At the end of the classroom scene in the video, a presentation on filtering is mentioned. Do you know of video or written material UK riders see on this subject?
quote:
Originally posted by Young Dai
For completeness / full disclosure, the one section of the video that I did expect to cause comment was the recommendation of Offsiding as a means of improving the view... That has been the subject of much ink and anguish in the UK motorcycle community and generally it is not encouraged or spoken of as much as it was.
I'm inferring that "offsiding" means crossing the centerline approaching a left bend (right bend in the US) to improve view. I didn't notice that in the video. |
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SkootchNC
Advanced Member
1062 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 1:45 PM
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First, let me remind everyone to see tip 012 Motor Officers are not the best examples.
NOT saying they are, or are not, I just wanted to bring that up, before going forward.
Bike Safe North Carolina is not a class, and you won't learn the fundamentals of motorcycle operation, nor will you push yourself, or your motorcycle to the limit.
Think of it, as a one day mentorship. is THAT a word? You sit in a class, and then you ride. The observing officer then critiques your riding. In my youth, there was no MSF class, you learned from a friend, and if you would listen, you would get further tips, and suggestions as time progressed. Or perhaps you did not.
After lunch, there is another classroom session, and then another ride, and the office discusses whether you applied his notes to your riding.
I posted this link in my previous note http://www.bikesafenc.com/
They explain the session better than I can.
Please forward the link to your local/ county/ state jurisdictions. If they really care about motorcycle safety, and decreasing wrecks.... it's as good a place to start, as any
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commonground
Standard Member
155 Posts
Windsor, PA
USA
Yamaha
V Star 1300
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 2:16 PM
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| Young, Please define for us Yanks what a "pol-smash" is and what "Offsiding" is. Thanks Augie |
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Horse
Senior Member
258 Posts
Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom
BMW
R850RT
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Posted - 01/31/2016 : 2:36 PM
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AKA 'polacc' - police accident, a crash involving a police vehicle. The definition extends to pursuits where the bandit vehicle's driver exceeds their talent quota and crashes of their own accord, so is actually 'involving a police officer'.
There are two terms for crossing the centre line (other than for overtaking ):
Offsiding, done to gain view or increase safety margin. Particularly 'view' on the approach to bends. As said, the subject of some debate . . .
Straightlining, for example riding a straight line through a series of wiggles, or straightening the exit of a RH bend. |
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Horse
Senior Member
258 Posts
Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom
BMW
R850RT
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts
Stratford, CT
USA
Suzuki
Bandit
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Posted - 02/02/2016 : 6:57 AM
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The more times I watch the last half of the video, where they are on narrow winding roads, I can see times that the following bike isn't even a half second distance. They were still traveling somewhere between 30 and 40 mph. The roads had shrubbery or forested areas on both sides.
If it were me, I'd have stopped and waved the guy to pass.
Seems some didn't think it was a big deal, but I'd ask, was there any good reason whatsoever for the motor officer to tailgate?
Pursuit training or not, he can't overcome reaction time if needed.
Worse, to me, would be if he's getting that close to watch braking, or shifting, which puts his focus away from where it might be needed. I only mention that since he was commenting often about the riders braking before cornering, and suggesting a lower gear. |
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Horse
Senior Member
258 Posts
Newbury, Berkshire
United Kingdom
BMW
R850RT
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Posted - 02/02/2016 : 10:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkfire
The more times I watch the last half of the video, where they are on narrow winding roads, I can see times that the following bike isn't even a half second distance. They were still traveling somewhere between 30 and 40 mph. The roads had shrubbery or forested areas on both sides.
Uh-oh. This one'll probably give you kittens . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYh1FWYtUA |
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts
Stratford, CT
USA
Suzuki
Bandit
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Posted - 02/02/2016 : 3:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Horse
quote:
Originally posted by rkfire
The more times I watch the last half of the video, where they are on narrow winding roads, I can see times that the following bike isn't even a half second distance. They were still traveling somewhere between 30 and 40 mph. The roads had shrubbery or forested areas on both sides.
Uh-oh. This one'll probably give you kittens . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYh1FWYtUA
Why? For the most part, the bikes had about 2 second spacing. When he momentarily got closer, for the most part he was at least staggered. The road was more open too, there were wide grass strips along most of the roads.
I don't know what was to give me kittens.
Further, this was 2 motor officers. I'd expect they know what to expect from one another, and I'd expect they'd take some calculated chances in training for emergency or pursuit calls.
They also seemed to take great care in moving away from any traffic that could encroach. Would they teach make space, except to the vehicle in front of them?
I still ask, what possible reason was the rider within half second spacing, for |
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commonground
Standard Member
155 Posts
Windsor, PA
USA
Yamaha
V Star 1300
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Posted - 02/02/2016 : 4:13 PM
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| Wow! I guess I'll have the kitten. That video doesn't give me any reason to respect police riding. The one guy was nearly sideswiped by a car and "Tucking In" at the last moment to avoid oncoming traffic on wet roads while crossing white lines is very high risk. No thanks, I'll have my kitten. Even if it's an emergency or a chase, not making it to the scene of the call or not coming home for supper anymore isn't worth it. Augie |
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Discussion Topic |
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UK Riders ; An Offer on Bikesafe Courses within the M25 ring