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 Motorcycle Safety
 Sharing of Lessons Learned
 Road raging and a bit of gun talk
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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  12:43 AM                       Like

Yesterday afternoon, sunny summer day, correct as much as I can trust my memory of events and translate it to english

I am approaching 2 lane roundabout on my motorcycle, driving under a bit of alcohol influence but well under legal limits ( < 0.5 grams per liter of blood).

Abiding to traffic regulations, stopping to give way to a car already in the roundabout, came to a stop on the left side of my lane (entrance to roundabout is also 2 lanes) when I hear tires screeching.

When I checked mirrors he already come to a stop with the car front nearly below my "cargo" box, but no impact.

Car is one of the smallest https://www.volkswagen.hr/up-1/up
Man appeared big, or at least wide and maybe around 35-50 years of age.

I used some limited body language to send message WTF are you doing, maybe have spread hands to sides while still stopped with my palms facing sky. Though I have delayed entering roundabout a bit longer then needed as I was a bit stressed, but about 10 seconds or alike.
No fingers or anything.

Than I entered the round about and went my way.
BUT he was still driving his small car under my box, almost like he was attached to my licence plate.

Than my brain started to read/treat that as attack on my body and preparing itself and body to fight for a life.

Car driver chose to erratically overtake me, over full line, in a totally unsafe manner (crazy).
There was no need for overtaking me, I was going with the traffic, it was rush hour but not standstill or anything alike.

And that was my tipping point. I do not remember did he gesticulated something, shouted from window or whatever as I went all black rage.

I accelerated and started driving as close to his driver side window, taking care of my own safety as I could.
Then he had to stop on red light.

Words exchanged are something like this:
M: WTF are you doing, first you nearly rear end me, then you stick to my ass, will you f**k of my ass or not
H: Get out of my face, just drive on (move)
M: Oh really, you are going to tell me now what I ll be doing or not

and some more forgotten stuff

then I move to right lane as I was to turn right and he was to go straight through.

Then someone from another car says, "look at that fool, he almost hits you and is now talking s**t, tell him what a fool he is".
I read that as throwing a bone between two dogs and watch them fight, so I reply to that third party,
"you tell him that yourself, his window is open he will hear you just fine."

Then the guy who almost hit me lowers his right side windows, and started talking something like, "you think I am fool, blah blah"

He also said , "I am also a motorcycle rider, blah blah, move on, I had enough for the day, I dont need your s**t now on top of my already s**tty day."

I replied, dear friend, I also had enough of my own s**t for today and also do not need yours, so what are we going to do now about all this s**t.

Some more sharp but forgotten sentences exchanged.
Green light saved the day as he was going straight through and I was turning right.........


Doh, this started me thinking to get myself a gun.


Lessons which I think should be learned but I am not sure if I did:

- avoid reigniting conflict which was about to end
- Do not have discussions with proven idiots, especially if you had even tasted alcohol.
- Breathe, think, than decide.
- Protect yourself by any means

Vlad

bachman1961
Male Advanced Member
2271 Posts
[Mentor]


colorado springs, co
USA

Honda

CB750 NightHawk

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  4:30 AM
I got a bit of that drama feeling just from your own words and I do think a part of my brain (logical sector versus emotional) would have let things be right from the get go. Easy for me to say since I wasn't in-the-moment, I know. I have the hindsight to see how things got a bit escalated.

Yet when I'm on the road on my cycle, I never lose track of that feeling we are but a few pounds of metal compared to even the smallest cars. If the other person is demented, drunk suicidal or just grumpy, it can go sideways fast and that car is a weapon. Even if unintentional and the other driver is erratic and yet not meaning to kill you, it can go south. Why take a chance starting that drama if you can bite your tongue or count to ten? Especially if that's the reasoning to carry a firearm. That sounds like an excuse to find trouble or at least to not back down which will possibly yield more drama opportunity bringing potential downside. In a car, in a bar on a bike, I don't think that's the correct reasoning for a gun. Let the traffic hot heads move on.

As for alcohol, I wouldn't be tempted to take a ride on the m/c if I had a half beer in me, say 4oz of a 5% er. In my case, it dulls my senses, can make me tired and I consider myself a lightweight as per handing abv levels. I do like a beer and am a one a day average.

I have no idea if that slight level of alcohol changes your demeanor in the case of arguments but it may be something to consider just as your closing -

Lessons which I think should be learned but I am not sure if I did:

- avoid reigniting conflict which was about to end
- Do not have discussions with proven idiots, especially if you had even tasted alcohol.
- Breathe, think, than decide.
- Protect yourself by any means


Protect yourself by any means !
Just playing down the hype a bit and avoiding ramping up conflict in the first place. He was likely taking out some aggression using his car, maybe looking for a fight but not necessarily targeting you. Wave him by and stay a ways back so he can go work it out elsewhere. Pleased to see your story end without anything building up to more and no collision in the first place.

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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  5:42 AM
Thank you for your reply.
I do share your views and what you are saying that it was the right thing to do.
About this firearm thing, I can't get it here and carry it around even if I wanted, it is illegal.

I used it (the word gun) just to transfer my feelings.

Maybe both of us have "had enough" of something else, and in a way both of us were looking and waiting for someone to come and "pay for everything"

I am always driving defensively (not sure if the wording is right in english), staying away from vehicles which are suspiciously moving within lane, and alike.

I will also try to avoid rush hours, especially afternoon ones, as the people are then exhausted and edgy.
Also writing about things works for me, I put my thoughts in "order", can read about the thing from new angle, something like that :)

It was a day, all is good, but it took me some time to calm down :)
Probably because this is the first time I crossed ways with such crazy driver
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17362 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  7:13 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
As you might expect, I have a few words I'd like to contribute to this thread.

What is hard for me, however, is not sounding 'preachy' - as in I know it all and have a need to show everybody that I do and especially to point out what everybody already knows about something, just to get my words heard and maybe influence the future a bit. I will try not to do any of that here.

First, bravo for avoiding a disaster by not 'going too far' in react mode. Tomorrow is still yours to enjoy because of that - and it sounds like you already have learned from the experience.

Second, there are two topics I'd like to contribute: 1) in-the-moment decision making, and 2) 'not illegal' misdirection.

In-the-moment decision making is a two-edged sword. By that, I mean, being prepared with experience, training, awareness (situational), sobriety, and practice leads to life-saving REACTIONS (NOT DECISION MAKING!). You can, via muscle memory, do what you need to do to AVOID an imminent threat without wasting time thinking about your options and deciding what to do - you just DO IT!.

Then, however, adrenaline takes over and things turn to Sh*t in a heartbeat. Your awareness turns to focus; meaning you lose situational awareness except for what has immediately presented itself as a threat, and you begin making decisions - often bad ones. In-the-moment decision making is actually after-the-fact decision making and you are at that time running turbo-charged and ready for anything, or so you believe, That is the time to step back and start to become considered. You are alive because of preparedness reactions, stay that way by overcoming the adrenaline 'insanity'.

Illegality misdirection is subtle. Here in the U.S., in one state it is not illegal to lane-split with a motorcycle. In that state, the vast number of motorcyclists believe it is, therefor, legal to do so. That kind of implies that it is reasonable and prudent - because, it is not illegal. And maybe they're right - most of the time.

Similarly, we all know that there is a legal limit to the amount of alcohol we can have in our bloodstream before it is illegal to drive. That translates into it is 'not illegal' to drive with slightly less juice in our systems - i.e., it's legal.

Just because it is 'not illegal' is hardly a rational justification to do something that could cost you your life.

But we all know that, too.

(Off my soapbox, for now.)
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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  9:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Illegality misdirection is subtle. Here in the U.S., in one state it is not illegal to lane-split with a motorcycle. In that state, the vast number of motorcyclists believe it is, therefor, legal to do so. That kind of implies that it is reasonable and prudent - because, it is not illegal. And maybe they're right - most of the time.

Similarly, we all know that there is a legal limit to the amount of alchohol we can have in our blood stream before it is illegal to drive. That translates into it is 'not illegal' to drive with slightly less juice in our systems - i.e., it's legal.


Solid examples.

About lane splitting, as far as I am informed here it is legal, but I am not doing it, unless all vehicles are stopped on for example red light, and am doing it slowly, expecting someone to open a car door or sudden lane change.
The problem with lane splitting here is that car drivers believe it is illegal and some choose to forcefully block you and force you on the other side or brake.

On alcohol, obviously we all already know all there is to know about it, but I will not lie and tell that I will not ever do it again.

My "excuse" is that average healthy human liver can clean out about half litre of 5% beer per hour.
And I count 3 hours, 3 beers, double espresso coffee or even energy drink and go slowly and carefully on my way, and I am not talking about long trips, just few kilometre radius.
If thing go over 3 beers, the bike stays wherever we were drinking and a friend drives me home in a car,taxi or alike.

I know it would be better not to. But it is what it is, though it is not written in stone.
I may update my own policies :)

And btw there is nothing wrong when the preacher starts to preach as long there is someone willing to listen to his preaching
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James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17362 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  12:16 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Okay. Thanks for the feedback.

So let me be a little bit preachy and amplify what I was saying about what's legal versus what's reasonable and prudent.

If your blood alcohol level is at or above the legal limit, then you are definitionally driving under the influence (DUI). Put another way, you are then 100% 'out of control' as a driver/rider of a vehicle.

Assume that if your level is only 80% of the limit, then you are not driving illegally, but you are 80% OUT OF CONTROL.

How out of control is reasonable or prudent? 50%, 30%, 10%. Your choice, of course - but you get the point, I'm sure.
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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  12:32 PM
Point taken.

Slam dunk

Thank you
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Cash Anthony
Female Administrator
1470 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, Texas
USA

Honda

Magna 750

Posted - 07/21/2019 :  12:34 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Here's a 'sobering' bit of information [no need to preach when the numbers will do it for you] :) --

>...Recent data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) revealed that 94% of all traffic accidents are caused by driver error. Of those accidents, 33% could be linked to behaviors typically assigned to road rage, such as illegal maneuvering or misjudging the intent of another driver.

To elaborate on that,

>In 1990, the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety conducted a study of over 10,000 traffic accidents linked to driver violence. Over a seven-year period, AAA found over 12,500 injuries could be linked to these acts. Road rage could also be linked to 218 deaths, mostly deliberate murders conducted by angry drivers. That number has been steadily increasing at a rate of 7% each year.

>In fact, data gathered by SafeMotorist.com indicates that 66% of recent traffic fatalities can be linked to aggressive driving. More disturbingly, 37% of those fatalities were found to be caused by a firearm, rather than a typical accident.

As to who starts it and who escalates it,

>During a recent poll conducted by AAA, half of drivers who shared road rage stories admitted to engaging in aggressive behavior in response.

How to avoid getting into such a situation?

>When asked what behaviors anger drivers the most, they cite cutting off, driving slow in the left lane, and tailgating as major offences that incite road rage. Avoiding these behaviors reduces a driver's risk of angering another.

>If a driver feels like responding with violence to another driver's road rage, the most important thing to remember is "Don't engage."

In the U.S., road rage incidents involving firearms aren't always reported, especially if they involve brandishing a gun rather than shooting one. The laws of the various states are different regarding what you can and can't do in 'self-defense,' and then there are the many differences in fact patterns and jury, as well as prosecutor, attitudes and decisions, so that it's hard to figure out where a road rage incident may lead.

People who live in Texas especially have little certainty of how the law will view these situations.

A sociologist who researches gun ownership and claims of self-defense comments,

>"With the growing number of people who can legally carry, there's a question as to whether these types of incidents might become more and more common."

The state of Texas is a prime example. In 2007, fewer than 300,000 Texans owned a handgun license, which requires classroom training and a proficiency test. That number stands at 1.2 million today. That does not include gun owners who are not licensed to carry.

It is perfectly legal in Texas to transport a handgun in the glove compartment of one's vehicle without possessing a license.

"And that is where I believe a lot of the problem is," said Hurst-based defense attorney Lex Johnston. "You can carry legally even though you're a hothead and you don't have that training and experience."

For people who carry, staying in control of yourself and avoiding road rage incidents by driving away, disciplining yourself not to react with gestures or "fighting words," and not getting out of a car if you're in one are by far smarter reactions than pulling your weapon.

Even if someone comes up to your car and brandishes a gun, there are three practical reasons not to pull yours and fire at that person who's threatening you. 1) If you fire through window glass, you won't be able to see what's happening outside; 2) if you fire a gun inside your car, you won't be able to hear anything for a while because of the noise; and 3) whether you'll be able to beat a charge of aggravated assault by claiming self-defense is highly problematic, even where the public might want to respect antiquated ideas like "never back down".

To read what a former police officer and current defense attorney has to say about your chances in a court room after a road rage incident, take a look at this website:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/de...st-road-rage


Cash
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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/21/2019 :  3:45 PM
Thanks
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Vlad
Male Administrator
18 Posts


Rijeka, PG
Croatia

Honda

CBX 500XA

Posted - 07/22/2019 :  4:17 AM

And now, after all this, I have kind of phobia to enter traffic so I am going to use taxi to do some errands in the city.
Even thinking about selling motorcycle.

Fear of myself...


Hopefully time will heal this.
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