(Please visit one of our advertisers)

No donations or subscriptions are required

   OR   
   
Subscription choices:
Board Karma = 40  (3458 positive of 3841 votes is 40 %pts higher than a neutral 50%)
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle   
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


 All Forums
 Motorcycle Safety
 Polls
 Should dropping a bike during MSF fail you?
Member Previous Topic Discussion Topic Next Topic  

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17381 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500
Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 04/16/2007 :  2:57 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend    DetailDetail                        Like
Poll Question:
This is a poll that anybody can participate it.

It appears that during MOST MSF BRC classes at least one student drops their motorcycle. If that happens while taking a skills test the student automatically fails the class.

This question has to do with students who drop their bikes at any other time during the class, not during a skill test.

If a student drops their bike during an MSF class, other than during a skills test, should that person be counseled out of the class?


Results:
No - anybody can drop a motorcycle, especially newbies, EVEN DURING A SKILLS TEST.   [21%] 27 votes 
No - the current rules are adequate - drops during a test cause you to fail.   [38%] 49 votes 
No - that is, not if its only dropped once and there are no injuries.   [11%] 14 votes 
No - no matter how many times as long as there are no injuries.   [2%] 2 votes 
No - no matter how many times, injuries or not.   [0%] 0 votes 
Yes - if a student drops it more than once, they should fail.   [22%] 29 votes 
Yes - even if dropped only once, whether there are injuries or not.   [5%] 6 votes 
No opinion - I pressed the button and need a way out of this poll.   [2%] 2 votes 
= Guests (51 votes)


Poll Status: Closed  »»   Total Votes: 129 counted  »»   Last Vote: 07/17/2007 6:27 PM 

howard.v
Male Senior Member
406 Posts


North Bend, OR
USA

Honda

2004 VT750 Aero

Posted - 04/17/2007 :  6:47 PM
If a student drops a bike more than once and the instructor has explained why the drops are happening, then the student drops the bike again, he should be failed for failure to take instruction. Not failed for dropping the bike. Failed for demonstrated inability to learn.
Go to Top of Page

Thom Thumb
Advanced Member
1595 Posts
[Mentor]


Jordan, MN
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster XL883

Posted - 04/18/2007 :  2:15 PM
Dropping a bike, or even just putting a foot down during the Motorcycle Operator's Test in Minnesota is cause for immediate failure, and ends the test. MSF Basic Rider Course seems to work about the same way. However, BRC is not just a test. It's also instruction in how to be a safe rider, so it would seem that some allowance should be made for instructing riders who do things wrong.

I also would expect the instructors (rider coaches?) to observe all aspects of what all students do, and coach them on areas that need improvement. For example, if a rider repeatedly forgets to put the side stand down, that rider should be coached to overcome the problem - even though the toppled bike may not be cause for failing the course.

TT
Go to Top of Page

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17381 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 04/18/2007 :  2:28 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Yep, you would think so, but that is not the case.

RiderCoaches are specifically told NOT to coach 'minor errors'. As a result, there are more 'minor errors', students who pass the course believe that what they did, unchallenged by their RiderCoaches, during the class must be 'best practice' even though they were often 'minor errors', and the result is VERY LIKELY more accidents. (You do believe that accidents are almost always the result of errors, right?)
Go to Top of Page

twc
Male Advanced Member
836 Posts
[Mentor]


Fort Collins, CO
USA

Harley-Davidson

Electra Glide Ultra

Posted - 04/18/2007 :  3:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

RiderCoaches are specifically told NOT to coach 'minor errors'.

I can only speak for the Rider's Edge BRC course that I took, but coaching was an integral part of the process. This was especially true during the second day, where we were working on things that were more advanced. After performing the maneuver that was being practiced, the next stop was at the trainer who observed your performance for detailed coaching on what you did right and wrong. It certainly seemed to me that no minor errors escaped their attention or comment.
Go to Top of Page

WarHawk
Male Advanced Member
1796 Posts


Baytown, Texas
USA

Yamaha

'07 V-Star Custom

Posted - 04/18/2007 :  3:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

Yep, you would think so, but that is not the case.

RiderCoaches are specifically told NOT to coach 'minor errors'. As a result, there are more 'minor errors', students who pass the course believe that what they did, unchallenged by their RiderCoaches, during the class must be 'best practice' even though they were often 'minor errors', and the result is VERY LIKELY more accidents. (You do believe that accidents are almost always the result of errors, right?)



No such thing as "accident"
Just a series of miscalculations/errors that lead to an incident
Go to Top of Page

seattlenighthawkrider
Male Junior Member
59 Posts


seattle, wa
USA

Honda

86 VF500 Interceptor

Posted - 04/19/2007 :  12:08 AM
if a student drops a bike once, and gets instruction as to why then fails to pay enough attention to keep from doing it again...then they are more likely to get themselves or someone else injured or killed with their driving. They lack the proper respect for the machine they are on and the situations they will be driving in...and as such should be failed until they get it. It's as much for our saftey as for them and anyone else on the road.
Go to Top of Page

SJW
Male Junior Member
28 Posts


Seattle, WA
USA

Honda

'81 GL500 Silverwing

Posted - 04/19/2007 :  12:00 PM

I took the BRC last December and the policy was that you were allowed one drop, but if it happened a second time you were dismissed (and a drop during the test was an instant fail). The instructors specifically said that this was required by their insurance.

This rule was used to dismiss 3 people (out of 12) and in each case it seemed entirely reasonable to me because all three of them were dangerously unable to keep their bikes under control. All three were gone before lunch on the first day, and I was actually a little relieved that I didn't have to share the range with them for the rest of the course...

If 6+ dropped bikes seems like a lot, it is. The instructors said that this was more drops that they had had in the last few months combined and were a little dumbfounded...

Go to Top of Page

sinfull
Female Starting Member
4 Posts


houston, tx
USA

Harley-Davidson

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  10:02 AM
I should have read this before I voted. I was thinking that anyone can drop a bike, but I really agree with what you said about not following instructions...
"He should be failed for failure to take instruction. Not failed for dropping the bike. Failed for demonstrated inability to learn."
Go to Top of Page

hitchface
Male Junior Member
50 Posts


Three Hills, Alberta
Canada

Kawasaki

'95 vn800

Posted - 05/05/2007 :  2:02 AM
This is tough to understand from my chair, because I don`t really understand the format of MSF classes, but I`ll give`r a go.

I guess I`ll relate this to learning to fly an airplane. In many instances throughout a flight, there is little margin for error. However, when learning, errors do come about. Sometimes the error will soon lead to some very serious consequences, but the instructor is there to prevent that from happening. From a student pilot`s standpoint, as soon as you are corrected by the instructor regarding that major problem, your self esteem and thus confidence go way down. From here it is very important that the instructor takes the time with that student to not only go over what happened, but help to boost confidence levels by showing what he/she did RIGHT. If that doesn't happen, the student will not likely learn a thing until the confidence issue is rectified. If confidence does not come up after a given period of time, say sianara to that student.

The point here is that if a student drops a bike and is only told that if it happens again, failure will result, what state of mind does that student participate in the next lesson with? I once had an experience with a flight instructor whom I felt was not particularly encouraging. I was learning to fly in a whole new way, and thus had some new regulations and new procedures to get accustomed to. Well, instead of learning about these things, I felt like I was immediately tested on them. How discouraging is it to go into a test without knowing the material you are to be tested on?

The point is that there needs to be a mechanism in place that allows a student to continue to learn after a bike drop. Bad landings can put people at an incredible amount of risk, much more so than a dropped motorcycle at any speed, yet in a pilot's training you are offered many chances (many more than 1, for that matter) to make mistakes and learn from them. While it is important for the student to learn to ride safely, it is the absolute RESPONSIBILITY of the instructor to HELP them learn in a very positive manner.
Go to Top of Page

jnmobley
Male Senior Member
261 Posts


Carson, Virginia
USA

Triumph

2007 Speedmaster

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  10:12 PM
The whole key is that this is "training" and in any type of training, mistakes are expected and corrected. This is how we learn.
However, repeating an error should not be tolerated.
Go to Top of Page

COOLTOY
Male Junior Member
34 Posts


Liberty, UT
USA

Suzuki

DL 650

Posted - 06/27/2007 :  12:59 AM
quote:
Dropping a bike, or even just putting a foot down during the Motorcycle Operator's Test in Minnesota is cause for immediate failure, and ends the test. MSF Basic Rider Course seems to work about the same way. However, BRC is not just a test. It's also instruction in how to be a safe rider, so it would seem that some allowance should be made for instructing riders who do things wrong.

I also would expect the instructors (rider coaches?) to observe all aspects of what all students do, and coach them on areas that need improvement. For example, if a rider repeatedly forgets to put the side stand down, that rider should be coached to overcome the problem - even though the toppled bike may not be cause for failing the course.

TT


I would not go so far as to state the MSF course is providing instruction on how to be a safe rider. that would mean MSf is teaching riders to be in complete control of their motorcycle which is not true.

Also, repeating mistakes is on eof the major reasons riders crash. So, making mistakes can be an integral part of teaching them not to repeat them.
Go to Top of Page

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17381 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 06/27/2007 :  5:06 AM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
I would not go so far as to state the MSF course is providing instruction on how to be a safe rider. that would mean MSf is teaching riders to be in complete control of their motorcycle which is not true.

But, of course, that is precisely what the MSF curriculum SHOULD do - teach riders to be in complete control of their motorcycle. Further, that is insufficient instruction to produce 'safe riders'. That would require teaching riders to be in complete control of THEMSELVES, too. Then, beyond control issues, there is the matter of situational management, risk avoidance techniques, and self-defense in the form of proper gear and attitude.

It is clear that the MSF curriculum scratches the surface when it comes to instructing 'safety', though it does do some of that.
Go to Top of Page

COOLTOY
Male Junior Member
34 Posts


Liberty, UT
USA

Suzuki

DL 650

Posted - 07/01/2007 :  8:29 PM
Just a little off topic.

What would a course that DID in fact teach a rider complete control of their motorcycle cost, who would teach it, and how long would it take?

I think the MSF does a good job accomplishing what they can in teh amount of time they have and considering their audience.

There is certainly more to learn, and techniques more advanced than MSF.

For me, I thikn the real injustice is that when a rider returns for the Experienced rider course, they do not learn ANY additional skills. They simply practice some of the same skills they already learned, on their own motorcycle and possibly with a passenger.

So, whil eit can be a good tool. I do not thikn it wise to believe that by taking ANY MSF course, you are gettign all the information you need to be in complete control of your motorcycle.

Also, great point that a rider being in control of themselves is key to being safe when riding.

Go to Top of Page

Bodhislackva
Male Junior Member
70 Posts


The Redneck Riviera, FL
USA

Ducati

900 SP

Posted - 07/03/2007 :  10:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by COOLTOY

What would a course that DID in fact teach a rider complete control of their motorcycle cost, who would teach it, and how long would it take?


Not really an answer, but the Canadian training approach might give you some ideas of what would be involved. Team Oregon, which I addressed in a recent post offers advanced training far beyond the ERC.
Go to Top of Page

Gary622
Male Junior Member
33 Posts


Prattville, AL
USA

Triumph

Trident

Posted - 07/03/2007 :  9:08 PM
Maybe it's covered in the statements about "making the same mistakes over and over," but this isn't a simple answer to me because a) some of the students in my BRC were totally new to motorcycles (that's what they recommend, right?), b) there are really a lot of ways to drop a bike and c) even experienced hands do drop bikes.

In my BRC we had one student who dropped the bike once or twice during maneuvers, and she either counseled out or left voluntarily - I think the latter because she completed day one of the range portion and didn't show for day two. Bad as I felt for her, I think that was perhaps for the best. But on the other hand someone I felt was one of the best riders dropped her bike - I didn't see it but I think she just pulled into a line waiting for the next exercise and - put her foot down wrong. Yeah, potentially disastrous in an intersection, and you need to learn not to do that, but it happens.

Go to Top of Page

storysunfolding
Male Junior Member
29 Posts


Falls Church, Va
USA

Suzuki

Vstrom 650

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  5:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

quote:
I would not go so far as to state the MSF course is providing instruction on how to be a safe rider. that would mean MSf is teaching riders to be in complete control of their motorcycle which is not true.

But, of course, that is precisely what the MSF curriculum SHOULD do - teach riders to be in complete control of their motorcycle. Further, that is insufficient instruction to produce 'safe riders'. That would require teaching riders to be in complete control of THEMSELVES, too. Then, beyond control issues, there is the matter of situational management, risk avoidance techniques, and self-defense in the form of proper gear and attitude.

It is clear that the MSF curriculum scratches the surface when it comes to instructing 'safety', though it does do some of that.



The MSF BRC is only designed as an introduction to becoming a safe rider. Ideally it would teach a rider to have full control of their motorcycle and be a completely safe rider but that's not going to happen in a weekend.

If a student drops a bike and can learn from it, that's great, drop it a few more times. This is learning and one way that people learn is by trying different things to see what works best.

Now if that student starts doing this in an unsafe manner, drops the bike to the point that I question that they are progressing fast enough in learning a skill or becomes an undue hindrance, then I will counsel that rider out. I'll most likely send them to a jumpstart or other pre-BRC course and explain that not everyone learns at the same pace. I've seen riders come back from this into my BRC and be great riders. I've also seen people who were atrocious but not unsafe on the first day come back the second day and do wonderfully.

I'd also like to point out that when I was taught to be an instructor we were warned to not over coach. The reasoning being that don't want a student to be concentrating on too many things at one time as that's a hindrance to learning. You also can't give a rider harsh criticism every time around or you will erode the rider's confidence. Part of coaching is pointing out something bad while also pointing out something good.
Go to Top of Page

James R. Davis
Male Administrator
17381 Posts
[Mentor]


Houston, TX
USA

Honda

GoldWing 1500

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  5:34 PM Follow poster on Twitter  Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
I appreciate that you are a conscientious RiderCoach and that you understand, well, the philosophy behind the current teaching method used in the BRC.

I have had more than a few conversations with Ray Ochs about it and, believe me, I also understand the intent.

I happen to agree that learner based education has a place in training. If you are taking a person under your wing who already has the fundamentals down pat and are there to learn master's level skills or techniques, that person is equipped to learn using this methodology. People who are new and MUST learn the fundamentals are, in my opinion, not in the least bit ready to 'learn by trying things out for themselves' and 'minor errors' for a newbie invariably means 'not in control' - and often leads to accidents.

Nevertheless, that *IS* the current methodology used with the BRC curriculum and as a result there are vastly more dropped motorcycles, and injuries and even deaths during that training.

You said when talking about dropping motorcycles during the BRC:
quote:
Now if that student starts doing this in an unsafe manner, ...
and I wonder when is it 'safe' to drop a motorcycle?

When students cannot start each evaluation exercise at the end of the second day of range work without stalling their engines, have they learned what they need to know to control a motorcycle and should they get a motorcycle endorsement test waiver because of what they 'learned' and demonstrated during that class?

Well, there are other threads here that discuss these topics in some detail and this thread is a specific opinion poll of our members about the consequences of dropping a bike during class. We have kind of taken a tangent here and should probably continue in a thread that focuses on education methodology.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Discussion Topic Next Topic  
Jump To:
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle © Master Strategy Group Go To Top Of Page
  This page was generated in 0.67 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05