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 All Forums
 Motorcycle Safety
 General Discussion
 Photo analysis - Harley low-side
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MattInFla
Male Senior Member
254 Posts
[Mentor]


Casselberry, FL
USA

Harley-Davidson

Electra Glide Classi

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  7:21 AM                       Like
Without mentioning the specific product, I came across an ad for a product that is supposed to improve the handling and safety of certain Harley models.

On the company's website, they feature a photo that allegedly highlights the flaw this product is supposed to fix. The claim is that their product will prevent this sort of thing.

Here's the pic in question:



Looking at the image for a few seconds, I think the actual cause of the low-side is apparent. Look at the front tire.

Anyone else see what I see?

Matt
rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  7:35 AM
I've done some parking lot practice with a rider who doesn't mind dropping his bike. The typical cause is he tries to take a turn that is too tight for the bike. He turns until the foot rest hits the pavement and then hits the stop. This lifts the weight off the front tire and it straightens very much like what it did in this picture.

Considering it is daylight and the degree of sparking that is seen, I'd say the bike was leaned over to the point where there is no spring left in the foot rest and it becomes a hard part. The bike pivoted on the hard part lifting the front wheel off the ground.

Assuming the speed was slow enough to make the curve possible, when the foot rest contacted the ground the rider could have leaned into the curve which would have straightened the bike and taken the weight off the foot rest.

The next proximate cause was entering the curve too fast for his ability and physics.

Really, I think the problem is his helmet. Rather, what's in it.
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MattInFla
Male Senior Member
254 Posts
[Mentor]


Casselberry, FL
USA

Harley-Davidson

Electra Glide Classi

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  7:44 AM
I agree with what you said, rioguy, but there's something else in the photo.

The front tire is either not turning at all, or just barely turning. Looks to me like he got in the turn too hot, and grabbed a handful of front brake.

Matt
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  7:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MattInFla

I agree with what you said, rioguy, but there's something else in the photo.

The front tire is either not turning at all, or just barely turning. Looks to me like he got in the turn too hot, and grabbed a handful of front brake.

Matt



Interesting observation and certainly a possible cause. However, the fact that the spokes are not blurred in the picture is not proof as none of the other parts of the bike are blurred.

One thing I've learned is my analysis of the final stages of a crash is seldom accurate. "He got in too hot" is the easily correctable stage. Answering the question "Why did he get in too hot?" would take it a step previous to the one we see.

The background is blurred which would seem to indicate the camera is being hand held and following the rider

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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  8:09 AM
It looks like he ran out of clearance and a hard point has levered or may be in the process of levering the tires off the ground. If he is under hard front brake, which is not entirely clear from the above still picture, it just means that he had reduced ground clearance. The photo doesn't provide much information , contextually for the control inputs that got the rider to this point, his speed, or the outcome (likely very bad, including severe 3rd degree asphalt rash an possibly much worse).

Note that the right front crash guard has not yet contacted the roadway surface.

What do they call the product that you do not mention? There should be a good market for something for something like "Bolt on Common Sense", "Brains in a Can", or a quart jar of "Instant Luck".
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Niebor
Ex-Member

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  8:33 AM
I'd be interested in the specific product reference as well. I'm not aware of anything out there that can prevent the inevitable outcome in that photo. It sppears he is well beyond the correctable stage.
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SkootchNC
Male Advanced Member
1062 Posts
[Mentor]


raleigh, north carolina
USA

Harley-Davidson

road glide

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  8:38 AM
Deal's Gap, US-129 between the NC/TN border,
The photograph was taken by Killboy.com High shutter speed, and hand held, will blur backgrounds, while freezing wheels in place.

The rider shown (and there are quite a few like him) did indeed lean over too far, and caused a hard point to pivot his bike and then dis-mounted him.

If you googled "Bagger wobble" and you found a web site, that claimed their product would prevent this I would doubt their claims.

To steal a phrase from Honda "stupid hurts"
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  9:45 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
I'm positive I saw an old thread about this picture on this site. I searched and couldn't find it.

The other thread had several photos showing the sequence, and I think it showed he started scraping, then braked and locked the front tire, and then landed on his face. There was a photo which showed the rear spokes in a blur, but the front spokes sharp and clear, and the front end was severely compressed from panic braking.
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vprahl
Male Standard Member
122 Posts


The Woodlands, tx
USA

Honda

Rebel

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  11:43 AM
Rioguy, Funny! I think you may be right.
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radan2
Male Advanced Member
1117 Posts
[Mentor]


Jacksonville, NC
USA

Moto Guzzi

2007 Breva V750 ie

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  11:51 AM
Note the length of the spark trail. The bike has traveled forward some two feet or so, but the front spokes are clear. That would seem to show the front wheel is not turning.
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  12:28 PM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
Here's the thread with 3 photo's of that guy. The middle photo is the same one, but a bit larger. I think you can clearly see the rear wheel is a blur, and the front wheel sharp. It appears that the forks are also compressed quite a bit. Just look at the relative clearance from the fender to the engine in the middle photo from the last photo.

edit: scroll down for it.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/t...ley,scraping

Edited by - rkfire on 02/20/2009 12:36 PM
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rioguy
Ex-Member

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  12:42 PM
RKfire,

Nice find. Notice the look on his face with the I'm cool with one hand in the air to the intense OS look right after.

James gave a good summary here:

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/t...y%2Cscraping

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MattInFla
Male Senior Member
254 Posts
[Mentor]


Casselberry, FL
USA

Harley-Davidson

Electra Glide Classi

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  12:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by radan2

Note the length of the spark trail. The bike has traveled forward some two feet or so, but the front spokes are clear. That would seem to show the front wheel is not turning.




Fully concur. It seems to me that as rioguy noted, he's in the corner well over the speed at which he can negotiate it. It seems to me that he recognized this, and applied sufficient front brake to stop the front wheel, which then washes out and down he goes.

The sales spiel attached is that a brace will prevent "bagger wobble", and thus (by implication) have prevented the whole lot of no-fun that is in this biker's immediate future.

Of course, no product can repeal the laws of physics, and at some point in the turn if your speed is too high, the outcome is set in stone.

Matt
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ricbassman
Male Standard Member
117 Posts


Martinsburg, WV
USA

Honda

SUPER Magna

Posted - 02/20/2009 :  2:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rioguy


Interesting observation and certainly a possible cause. However, the fact that the spokes are not blurred in the picture is not proof as none of the other parts of the bike are blurred.




I don't know... You can't see the spokes of the rear wheel, and if you compare the tread of each tire, you notice that the front wheel's tread isn't moving, but the rear wheel has blurred tread.

Maybe the only person who knows for sure is the guy with skinned arms
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sporty
Senior Member
338 Posts


north liberty, ia
USA

Harley-Davidson

Dyna & Sportster

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  9:32 AM
Be careful how you form opinions about what
the photo 'shows'. Looking at only the
photo shown in this thread, I would have
guessed a high shutter speed and large
aperture (i.e. action program) which
would tend to cause blurring at points
away from the plane-of-focus.

Looking at the set of 3 images, I would
tend to suggest compression artifacts are
to blame for the fuzzy look of the background
(i.e. the camera did it).

So, given only the single image in this thread,
don't jump to the conclusion that the front wheel
is locked only from the lack of blurring of
the front spokes.
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gymnast
Moderator
4260 Posts
[Mentor]


Meridian, Idaho
USA

Harley-Davidson

Sportster Sport

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  9:53 AM
One thing about the photo sequence is clear from the last of the three photos. The front wheel is free to turn as the riders hands are no where near the controls. He has started to attempt to get away from the problem that he has created and abandoned his fate to the non-existent mercy of the laws of Newton. Too bad that he didn't dress for such a formal occasion.
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Texasphotographer
Male Advanced Member
896 Posts
[Mentor]


Copperas Cove, Texas
USA

Honda

2006 GL1800 Trike

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  7:37 PM
Definitely a long focal length (telephoto lens) used here and Sporty is right a wide aperature which gives a very shallow depth of focus thus the object motorcycle is sharp and background is out of focus. A higher speed shutter was also employed as the motorcycle is 90 degrees from the camera and at that angle it requires the higher shutter speed than if the camera were on a lesser angle to the motorcycle.

I have done all kinds of photography to make a living over the past 60 years or so that I have been pushing a shutter button, but I put standing on a street in all kinds of weather shooting motorcycles on the same plane as doing kiddie photos on a pony. You can make money, but not my idea of exciting or rewarding imagery.

Love his outfit. Bet in about 1/100 second later he wished he was better attired for riding.
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VodkaAndPickles
Male Advanced Member
589 Posts


Langhorne, PA
USA

Suzuki

Intruder 1500 LC

Peer Review: 2

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  11:23 PM
I've seen these photos many times on several forums.

It never ceases to amaze me how smug other motorcyclists are when they are discussing his crash. It's easy to be glum about his misfortune when you're talking about it on a motorcycle safety forum, wear ATGATT, and generally consider yourself skillful. Yes, it's easy to make fun of him for wearing a wife-beater and a fake helmet, but remember that we are all at risk of crashing. Where's the supposed "brotherhood" and all the goodwill it entails?

Do you have a guarantee that you will never panic and lock up your front brake in a curve, despite all of your reading and training? Do you have a guarantee that all your expensive gear will save your life if you crash?

Yes, his choice in protective gear is not intelligent, and his motorcycle skills are apparently not top-notch either. But we all risk the same thing when we get on a bike, and I'm sure that guy was in a world of hurt after he crashed, if he even survived it in the first place. Let's stick to finding out why he crashed in the first place so it can provide a lesson for other people, and stay away from stuff like "stupid hurts" or "the problem is the content of his helmet". It's called gloating in some dictionaries.
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rkfire
Advanced Member
1716 Posts


Stratford, CT
USA

Suzuki

Bandit

Peer Review: Blocked

Posted - 02/22/2009 :  10:46 AM   Join poster on Facebook as Friend  
quote:
[i]Originally posted by VodkaAndPickles
Yes, it's easy to make fun of him for wearing a wife-beater and a fake helmet

Yes, his choice in protective gear is not intelligent, and his motorcycle skills are apparently not top-notch either.


So, I take it that the above wasn't smug, or gloating?


Actually, the OP saw this on a site where they claimed some sort of saddlebag stabilizer or such, and where they claimed this accident would apparently have not occurred had he used their device. Which by all accounts looks like nonsense. I say shame on the company using this guys picture, and their inference.
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vivid dadas
Senior Member
285 Posts


Columbus, OH
USA

Suzuki

V-Strom 650DL

Posted - 02/22/2009 :  6:02 PM
Bagger wobble?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2bXVbLGdPs

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