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 Motorcycle Safety
 Rider Training Courses
 Team Oregon complaints
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Vulcan500Rider
Junior Member
56 Posts


Eugene, OR
USA

Kawasaki

Vulcan 500

Posted - 03/16/2013 :  9:06 AM
The instructor with the hard to understand accent was not the main instructor, but they took turns explaining the exercises. Thinking back it was not just the accent, it was how he delivered it. He didn't seem to be talking to the group. He was reading from a card and talked very fast and low volume, all the while hardly looking at the group.

The main instructor was very good. He talked to the group and emphasized points by asking questions to us about what we should learn from this exercise.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 03/16/2013 :  11:42 AM
Here's the odd part: they were both using a script. Our Brit friend was literally reading from the cards, most likely because he is on the new side. The script is pretty clear, you give the objectives, describe the exercise and then use scripted questions to check for retention.

Isn't it amazing the difference delivery, style and practice can make?
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dhalen32
Male Moderator
846 Posts
[Mentor]


Omaha, NE
USA

BMW

R1200RT

Posted - 03/17/2013 :  11:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James R. Davis

dhalan32 asked:
quote:
Jim:
What, in your opinion, makes the BRT and STAR classes so much better than an MSF BRC class? As you know I am an MSF guy but I would really like to know more about what has led you to this conclusion. Thanks!
Dave


I don't think the BRT or STAR programs are 'so much better', just better in several ways. Indeed, I said above:
quote:
and have concluded that both programs and administrations are in several ways better than provided (eg., the BRC) from the MSF.



It's been a few years since I looked closely at the various programs. I recall that the BRT and STAR curriculum are very similar to the BRC - but there is more emphasis in them on bike control in curves and in swerves. I believe that the BRT and STAR instruction is also somewhat LESS 'learner based' and more old-school instruction.

I think the range work on the second day also divides the class in half so that there are fewer students moving on the range at the same time.

Administratively, the instructors report directly to the Team Oregon Training Manager - which is an accountable relationship instead of the loose and more or less imagined reporting responsibility within the MSF structure. This, by the way, may become visible in a trial against the MSF and others in a Federal Court case in the next couple of weeks.

Whatever the differences in training, the results, as indicated by the relatively low number of motorcycle deaths of 'trained riders' in Oregon and Idaho as compared to other states, seem to suggest that their training is more effective.



Jim:
Thanks for the reply.

I think there may be some confusion on the part of many people about how states use the MSF designed BRC curriculum. I would like to try to clarify that. While the MSF does administer a few state programs such as California, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, New York and West Virginia, the MSF does not really have any influence over how most states run their motorcycle safety programs.

In the two states where I currently work, Nebraska and Iowa, we utilize MSF curriculum products as well as their online QA visit forms. In both states individual providers (private businesses, community colleges and state universities) actually provide the training and the MSF has absolutely nothing to do with their day to day operations. While the states' RiderCoaches are initially trained and annually updated by each state as well as licensed by them, the states do not pay their salaries nor have a say in operational decisions and processes. Each state also has rules for what has to be conveyed to the students and random QA visits are performed by the state to check for compliance.

However, there is not nearly as much control as you have described for Oregon and Idaho. Could that be the issue you actually have with the MSF or is it the learner centered nature of the curriculum itself?

A correctly facilitated MSF BRC absolutely uses small group techniques in the classroom for the adults to learn what is defined in their text books but their findings are discussed amongst all 12 students so nobody is left out of the discussion. On the range there are actually very few exercises where all 12 riders are moving at the same time. Many have the class divided into two groups operating independently while two exercises use a split format where half of the students ride while the other half observe and tell the RiderCoach what they are seeing in their peer's development.

Proficient cornering is not a skill that is ignored in a BRC nor is braking but what Crash has described for maximum braking is certainly a significant difference. Since I have no personal experience with the BRT or STAR curriculum I will defer to Crash's recollections and comparisons and thank him for describing what he feels are the differences. Thanks Crash!
Dave
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Axiom2000
Male Moderator
1761 Posts
[Mentor]


Georgetown, Delaware
USA

BMW

F 800 GT

Posted - 03/17/2013 :  4:11 PM
quote:
While the states' RiderCoaches are initially trained and annually updated by each state as well as licensed by them, the states do not pay their salaries nor have a say in operational decisions and processes. Each state also has rules for what has to be conveyed to the students and random QA visits are performed by the state to check for compliance


There are states where the motorcycle program is completely controlled and administered by that state, I work in such a state. As such I am a state employee, certified by the state, paid by the state and report directly to the program administrator who is a state employee reporting to DMV management. We use the MSF curriculum
somewhat modified for our particular needs but it is a 100% state program. Frankly I like it this way, because as long as I am competent in what I do and don't deviate from the curriculum in a meaningful for no reason way, I am covered by the state for any potential liability. Of course the onus is still on me to assure what I do follows all the policies and procedures we have for running the program.
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CaptCrash
Male Advanced Member
744 Posts
[Mentor]


Nampa, ID
USA

Honda

Phantom

Posted - 03/17/2013 :  5:33 PM
The relationship of state and program is a tricky one--here in Idaho you could open your riding school but you would not (I believe) be able to come to a place of compliance with the State and be able to offer the license waiver without curriculum approval from the state. Likewise a in an MSF state if a provider significantly changes the MSF curriculum the MSF could decertify you...and you would lose your ability to offer a waiver.

Part of the OP's foundational complaint is the lack of uniformity in presentation and execution and that is also an overarching issue for all motorcycle instruction both at the macro and micro level. Add quality of information and it's the trifecta of motorcycle educational issues.
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Irondad
Male Starting Member
1 Posts


Albany, OR
USA

Yamaha

FJR1300

Peer Review: 1

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  12:31 PM
Vulcan 500

I am the Training Manager for TEAM OREGON. My apologies that your experience in the class wasn't ideal for you. This discussion was brought to my attention. I registered for an account here so I could communicate with you in this regard.

Providing excellent customer service is high on our list of priorities. I would welcome and encourage you to email me directly. If you would send me your contact information and the date of your class I would appreciate the opportunity to follow up.

dan.bateman@oregonstate.edu

Take care
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